Thanks for this, Sridhar!  I'll try to get the ones I mentioned below, and
see how I go.  Maybe we should try to get a Bollywood re. 'Sherlock Holmes
and the Indian Maharaja' etc?
-----Original Message-----
From: SherlockHolmesSocietyofIndia@...
[mailto:SherlockHolmesSocietyofIndia@...] On Behalf Of sridhar
C
Sent: 01 February 2006 02:25
To: SherlockHolmesSocietyofIndia@...
Subject: Re: [sherlock holmes society of india] Bollywood

Dear Tim,

   As regards the availability of these movies, I am alas unable to say
anything because I've never set foot outside my dear country! But as to the
names of the different movies that would be worth watching, I can give u a
big list. Now, I'm not much into the romantic kind of movies. I like
watching action and comedy. But even among the comedies, there are movies
like Angoor, Jaane Bhi Do Yaaro, Chashmebadoor, etc. which stand apart. So,
just let me know when u want to see more of those types and I'll send u a
list every now and then.

   Sridhar

vijay singha <vp_singha@...> wrote:
   Dear Tim,
   If you go into any store run by an Indian in London or anywhere in the UK,
I am sure you will be able to get all the movie videos you mentioned.
Although I haven't visited England, on my last visit to Germany, I went into
a video library run by a Pakistani in Hanover where I saw over 250
Hindi(what you call Bollywood) movie videos in stock.
   I am sure that that will be the case in England too, specially in the
"Little Indias" like South Hall and Hounslow(sp?)
   You may like the biggest Bollywood blockbuster of all time: SHOLAY(A kind
of Hindi "How the West was won") to your list.
   Best of luck and regards,
   VPS
Tim Symonds <tim.symonds@...> wrote:
   Can anyone suggest where I can purchase videos of 'Bollywood' films?
After
reading the features on India in the latest New Statesman (January 30) I'm
keen to view some of the classical ones, for instance:



Mughal-e Azam,

Pakeezah,

Pyaasa, and

Dilwale dulhaniya le jayenge.



Is there anywhere in the UK I can order these?



Cheers!



Tim









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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Dear Tim,

   As regards the availability of these movies, I am alas unable to say anything
because I've never set foot outside my dear country! But as to the names of the
different movies that would be worth watching, I can give u a big list. Now, I'm
not much into the romantic kind of movies. I like watching action and comedy.
But even among the comedies, there are movies like Angoor, Jaane Bhi Do Yaaro,
Chashmebadoor, etc. which stand apart. So, just let me know when u want to see
more of those types and I'll send u a list every now and then.

   Sridhar

vijay singha <vp_singha@...> wrote:
   Dear Tim,
   If you go into any store run by an Indian in London or anywhere in the UK, I
am sure you will be able to get all the movie videos you mentioned. Although I
haven't visited England, on my last visit to Germany, I went into a video
library run by a Pakistani in Hanover where I saw over 250 Hindi(what you call
Bollywood) movie videos in stock.
   I am sure that that will be the case in England too, specially in the "Little
Indias" like South Hall and Hounslow(sp?)
   You may like the biggest Bollywood blockbuster of all time: SHOLAY(A kind of
Hindi "How the West was won") to your list.
   Best of luck and regards,
   VPS
Tim Symonds <tim.symonds@...> wrote:
   Can anyone suggest where I can purchase videos of 'Bollywood' films?   After
reading the features on India in the latest New Statesman (January 30) I'm
keen to view some of the classical ones, for instance:



Mughal-e Azam,

Pakeezah,

Pyaasa, and

Dilwale dulhaniya le jayenge.



Is there anywhere in the UK I can order these?



Cheers!



Tim









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Many thanks for this welcome suggestion, Vijay - I'll be going to Heathrow
soon so I could arrive a little earlier and spend an hour in Hounslow,
looking for the videos.

Cheers!

Tim


-----Original Message-----
From: SherlockHolmesSocietyofIndia@...
[mailto:SherlockHolmesSocietyofIndia@...] On Behalf Of vijay
singha
Sent: 30 January 2006 05:50
To: SherlockHolmesSocietyofIndia@...
Subject: Re: [sherlock holmes society of india] Bollywood

Dear Tim,
   If you go into any store run by an Indian in London or anywhere in the UK,
I am sure you will be able to get all the movie videos you mentioned.
Although I haven't visited England, on my last visit to Germany, I went into
a video library run by a Pakistani in Hanover where I saw over 250
Hindi(what you call Bollywood) movie videos in stock.
   I am sure that that will be the case in England too, specially in the
"Little Indias" like South Hall and Hounslow(sp?)
   You may like the biggest Bollywood blockbuster of all time: SHOLAY(A kind
of Hindi "How the West was won") to your list.
   Best of luck and regards,
   VPS
Tim Symonds <tim.symonds@...> wrote:
   Can anyone suggest where I can purchase videos of 'Bollywood' films?
After
reading the features on India in the latest New Statesman (January 30) I'm
keen to view some of the classical ones, for instance:



Mughal-e Azam,

Pakeezah,

Pyaasa, and

Dilwale dulhaniya le jayenge.



Is there anywhere in the UK I can order these?



Cheers!



Tim









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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Dear Tim,
   If you go into any store run by an Indian in London or anywhere in the UK, I
am sure you will be able to get all the movie videos you mentioned. Although I
haven't visited England, on my last visit to Germany, I went into a video
library run by a Pakistani in Hanover where I saw over 250 Hindi(what you call
Bollywood) movie videos in stock.
   I am sure that that will be the case in England too, specially in the "Little
Indias" like South Hall and Hounslow(sp?)
   You may like the biggest Bollywood blockbuster of all time: SHOLAY(A kind of
Hindi "How the West was won") to your list.
   Best of luck and regards,
   VPS
Tim Symonds <tim.symonds@...> wrote:
   Can anyone suggest where I can purchase videos of 'Bollywood' films?   After
reading the features on India in the latest New Statesman (January 30) I'm
keen to view some of the classical ones, for instance:



Mughal-e Azam,

Pakeezah,

Pyaasa, and

Dilwale dulhaniya le jayenge.



Is there anywhere in the UK I can order these?



Cheers!



Tim









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



---------------------------------
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    To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://in.groups.yahoo.com/group/SherlockHolmesSocietyofIndia/

    To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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---------------------------------
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used cars.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Can anyone suggest where I can purchase videos of 'Bollywood' films?   After
reading the features on India in the latest New Statesman (January 30) I'm
keen to view some of the classical ones, for instance:



Mughal-e Azam,

Pakeezah,

Pyaasa, and

Dilwale dulhaniya le jayenge.



Is there anywhere in the UK I can order these?



Cheers!



Tim









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sridhar is certainly correct in that events close to hand were often used by
detective writers - Conan Doyle used several matters he read about in local
newspapers to expand into a story.  I seem to recall reading he kept a scrap
book of cuttings from local newspapers.


-----Original Message-----
From: SherlockHolmesSocietyofIndia@...
[mailto:SherlockHolmesSocietyofIndia@...] On Behalf Of sridhar
C
Sent: 28 January 2006 02:58
To: SherlockHolmesSocietyofIndia@...
Subject: Re: [sherlock holmes society of india] Doyle and Christie

Dear SHians,

   As far as I remember, Poirot, Miss. Marple, Parker Pyne, and the couple
(whose name I've forgotten), all worked on the maxim of Holmes - there's
nothing new under the sun, it's all been done before.  Miss. Marple, in
particular, was often reminded of some happening of her tiny little village
(Hogsmeade or something like that) which was very similar to the incident
she was then investigating. Although Poirot was not as much of an elephant
for memories, he too found an old case of his (generally when he was in the
Belgian police force) to have a close bearing on some of the cases he
investigated.

   Poirot and Miss Marple, of course, were more of armchair detectives, like
Holmes often was (though we haven't read much about those cases!). Poirot,
in fact, often told his Watson (Capt. Hastings) that he used his "little
grey cells" to solve the crime without actually going bloodhound-ing.

   I don't remember  much about the couple and Parker Pyne, so I can't tell
you more about them. But this is what I recollect having read.


   Sridhar

pinaki roy <monkaroy@...> wrote:
   Dear Sherlockians,
                                          First of all, greetings to all of
you on the occasion of the Indian Republic Day! In response to Sumal's
query, I would agree with Sridhar that as long as we continue addressing one
another, any form of address would do. However, I personally prefer
"Sherlockians" to "Holmesians".

                                         I presume that our discussions on "A
Scandal in Bohemia" are over, and I would request Sumal, Sridhar, Tim, Julia
or Jeff, and, of course, the others to suggest a new topic. Meanwhile, I
have got this question. In John A. Hodgson-edited "Sherlock Holmes: The
Major Stories", Stephen King writes, 'To become a best seller like [Doyle].a
writer of crime stories has to embody in the detective a set of values which
the audience finds convincing, forces which they can believe will work to
contain the disorders of crime. What then were the values that gave power to
the Holmes phenomenon - what does the great detective stand for?...In the
first place, he stands for science, that exciting new nineteenth-century
force in the public mind.He can explain the causes of material evidence
either by the science of deduction, as Doyle calls it, or through his
knowledge of forensic facts and criminal history.'

                                                   Now, Agatha Christie is a
best-selling author, and probably as efficient as crime story writer as
Doyle. Her Hercule Poirot, a retired Belgian police official, is at least
not a 'man of science'. Poirot also does not appear to possess an
encyclopaedic forensic knowledge, and his mode of detection cannot be called
the science of deduction. Then what is the secret of Poirot's popularity?
The first Hercule Poirot story, "The Mysterious Affairs at Styles", was
published in 1920 - thirty three after Holmes appeared in "The Beeton's
Christmas Annual", November 1887.  I would request the esteemed Sherlockians
to let me know their views on this.




   (Pinaki Roy)




























   From:

   Pinaki Roy,
   Lecturer,
   Department of English,
   Faculty of Post-graduate Studies,
   1st Floor,
   Malda College,
   Rathbari More, Rabindra Avenue,
   Post Office + District: Malda - 732 101,
   West Bengal





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Dear SHians,

   As far as I remember, Poirot, Miss. Marple, Parker Pyne, and the couple (whose
name I've forgotten), all worked on the maxim of Holmes - there's nothing new
under the sun, it's all been done before.  Miss. Marple, in particular, was
often reminded of some happening of her tiny little village (Hogsmeade or
something like that) which was very similar to the incident she was then
investigating. Although Poirot was not as much of an elephant for memories, he
too found an old case of his (generally when he was in the Belgian police force)
to have a close bearing on some of the cases he investigated.

   Poirot and Miss Marple, of course, were more of armchair detectives, like
Holmes often was (though we haven't read much about those cases!). Poirot, in
fact, often told his Watson (Capt. Hastings) that he used his "little grey
cells" to solve the crime without actually going bloodhound-ing.

   I don't remember  much about the couple and Parker Pyne, so I can't tell you
more about them. But this is what I recollect having read.


   Sridhar

pinaki roy <monkaroy@...> wrote:
   Dear Sherlockians,
                                          First of all, greetings to all of you
on the occasion of the Indian Republic Day! In response to Sumal’s query, I
would agree with Sridhar that as long as we continue addressing one another, any
form of address would do. However, I personally prefer “Sherlockians” to
“Holmesians”.

                                         I presume that our discussions on “A
Scandal in Bohemia” are over, and I would request Sumal, Sridhar, Tim, Julia or
Jeff, and, of course, the others to suggest a new topic. Meanwhile, I have got
this question. In John A. Hodgson-edited “Sherlock Holmes: The Major Stories”,
Stephen King writes, ‘To become a best seller like [Doyle]…a writer of crime
stories has to embody in the detective a set of values which the audience finds
convincing, forces which they can believe will work to contain the disorders of
crime. What then were the values that gave power to the Holmes phenomenon – what
does the great detective stand for?...In the first place, he stands for science,
that exciting new nineteenth-century force in the public mind…He can explain the
causes of material evidence either by the science of deduction, as Doyle calls
it, or through his knowledge of forensic facts and criminal history…’

                                                   Now, Agatha Christie is a
best-selling author, and probably as efficient as crime story writer as Doyle.
Her Hercule Poirot, a retired Belgian police official, is at least not a ‘man of
science’. Poirot also does not appear to possess an encyclopaedic forensic
knowledge, and his mode of detection cannot be called the science of deduction.
Then what is the secret of Poirot’s popularity? The first Hercule Poirot story,
“The Mysterious Affairs at Styles”, was published in 1920 – thirty three after
Holmes appeared in “The Beeton’s Christmas Annual”, November 1887.  I would
request the esteemed Sherlockians to let me know their views on this.




   (Pinaki Roy)




























   From:

   Pinaki Roy,
   Lecturer,
   Department of English,
   Faculty of Post-graduate Studies,
   1st Floor,
   Malda College,
   Rathbari More, Rabindra Avenue,
   Post Office + District: Malda – 732 101,
   West Bengal





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Greetings to my fellow Sherlockians (Holmesians, if you wish) from
across the Pacific.

In honor of The Sign of Four (published in the USA  as the Sign of the
Four)...tomorrow evening, the Goose Club of the Alpha Inn will hold a
belated birthday party to honor Sherlock Holmes.

The Goose Club will have its 29th Annual Countess of Morcar Dinner this
Saturday, January 28th, at 8PM at Nizam of India Restaurant near
Westwood and Pico. (Near UCLA in Los Angeles, as a point of reference).

With all good wishes,

Gwen in L.A.

>
>
>
>
>
>

Hello,

I recently watched the film, and was struck by the "Spielberg touch."
This film could very well be called "Indiana Sherlock and the Pyramid
of Doom," as it was very like the Indiana Jones adventures films.
Spielberg did not direct the film, he was "executive producer" or some
such title. The film was written by Chris Columbus, who wrote the
"Harry Potter" films.

--- In SherlockHolmesSocietyofIndia@..., sumalsn
<no_reply@y...> wrote:
>
> Dear Sir,
>  I think we discussed the movie extensively earlier. It was quite
> disappointing to see a movie produced by Steven Spielperg being so
> absolutely cockeyed in its treatment of the subject.
> Sumal
>

Hello,

there is one curious incident, in "The Man with the Twisted Lip,"
where Mrs Watson apparently refers to her husband as James, rather
than John!

I believe you will find brothers Sherlock and Mycroft addressing each
other by first name, in "The Greek Interpreter" and "The Bruce
Partington Plans." And in "The Sign of Four," Sherman (the owner of
Toby the bloodhound) tells Dr Watson that "A friend of Mr. Sherlock is
always welcome."



--- In SherlockHolmesSocietyofIndia@..., vijay singha
<vp_singha@y...> wrote:
>
> Dear All,
>   Now that Sumal has brought up the topic, let me also add my bit:
>         As far as I know, throughout the entire canon,both the
central characters have ALWAYS  called each other by their
surnames.Can anyone recollect an instance of Holmes calling Watson,
John or the latter calling the former Sherlock?

Hello,

I believe you are correct, in the UK they refer to themselves as
"Holmesians" (with the accent on the second syllable,
"hol-MEES-ians"), and in the US as "Sherlockians." Maybe the British
are more polite, and would not address someone by his first name
before a proper introduction?

--- In SherlockHolmesSocietyofIndia@..., sumalsn
<no_reply@y...> wrote:
>
> Dear Sherlockians,
>  I have noticed the use of the term " Holmesians" by a few of our
> members. I personally use " Sherlockians". If I am not mistaken, "
> Sherlockians" as a term of address is used by Americans and "
> Holmesians" is used by the British . What should we follow? Any
> comments?
> Sumal
>

Dear All,
   Now that Sumal has brought up the topic, let me also add my bit:
         As far as I know, throughout the entire canon,both the central
characters have ALWAYS  called each other by their surnames.Can anyone recollect
an instance of Holmes calling Watson, John or the latter calling the former
Sherlock?
   That,I believe,is because the British usually call people close to them by
their surnames.If the relationship is not a close one, then Mr. is the normal
way of salutation. Whereas, among the Americans,use of the christian(or first)
name is the usual norm.You can see this in most American movies or TV serials.
   Under the circumstances, I think it would bebetter to refer to ourselves as
Holmesians.
   However,to each his own is the democratic way!
   VPS

sumalsn <no_reply@...> wrote:
   Dear Sherlockians,
I have noticed the use of the term " Holmesians" by a few of our
members. I personally use " Sherlockians". If I am not mistaken, "
Sherlockians" as a term of address is used by Americans and "
Holmesians" is used by the British . What should we follow? Any
comments?
Sumal





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear Sherlockians,
                                          First of all, greetings to all of you
on the occasion of the Indian Republic Day! In response to Sumal’s query, I
would agree with Sridhar that as long as we continue addressing one another, any
form of address would do. However, I personally prefer “Sherlockians” to
“Holmesians”.

                                         I presume that our discussions on “A
Scandal in Bohemia” are over, and I would request Sumal, Sridhar, Tim, Julia or
Jeff, and, of course, the others to suggest a new topic. Meanwhile, I have got
this question. In John A. Hodgson-edited “Sherlock Holmes: The Major Stories”,
Stephen King writes, ‘To become a best seller like [Doyle]…a writer of crime
stories has to embody in the detective a set of values which the audience finds
convincing, forces which they can believe will work to contain the disorders of
crime. What then were the values that gave power to the Holmes phenomenon – what
does the great detective stand for?...In the first place, he stands for science,
that exciting new nineteenth-century force in the public mind…He can explain the
causes of material evidence either by the science of deduction, as Doyle calls
it, or through his knowledge of forensic facts and criminal history…’

                                                   Now, Agatha Christie is a
best-selling author, and probably as efficient as crime story writer as Doyle.
Her Hercule Poirot, a retired Belgian police official, is at least not a ‘man of
science’. Poirot also does not appear to possess an encyclopaedic forensic
knowledge, and his mode of detection cannot be called the science of deduction.
Then what is the secret of Poirot’s popularity? The first Hercule Poirot story,
“The Mysterious Affairs at Styles”, was published in 1920 – thirty three after
Holmes appeared in “The Beeton’s Christmas Annual”, November 1887.  I would
request the esteemed Sherlockians to let me know their views on this.




   (Pinaki Roy)




























   From:

   Pinaki Roy,
   Lecturer,
   Department of English,
   Faculty of Post-graduate Studies,
   1st Floor,
   Malda College,
   Rathbari More, Rabindra Avenue,
   Post Office + District: Malda – 732 101,
   West Bengal





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

And I use "SHians" sometimes. Well, I guess to each his/her own, as long as the
meaning is clear. What do the others think?


   Sridhar

sumalsn <no_reply@...> wrote:
   Dear Sherlockians,
I have noticed the use of the term " Holmesians" by a few of our
members. I personally use " Sherlockians". If I am not mistaken, "
Sherlockians" as a term of address is used by Americans and "
Holmesians" is used by the British . What should we follow? Any
comments?
Sumal





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello everybody,

              Well i dont know for sure if the term
Holmesians is British or American.But if it is
British,I think there shouldnt be any doubt as to the
use of the term Holmesians simply because of the fact
that SH was from Britain and all his adventures are
set in the English background.It would be rather
hypocritical of us to use an American term like
Sherlockians,if it is American that is!!

                                              YOURS
SINCERELY,
                                              FAISAL
ABDUL MUJEEB
--- sumalsn <no_reply@...> wrote:


---------------------------------
Dear Sherlockians,
  I have noticed the use of the term " Holmesians" by a
few of our
members. I personally use " Sherlockians". If I am not
mistaken, "
Sherlockians" as a term of address is used by
Americans and "
Holmesians" is used by the British . What should we
follow? Any
comments?
Sumal





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Send instant messages to your online friends http://in.messenger.yahoo.com

Dear Sherlockians,
  I have noticed the use of the term " Holmesians" by a few of our
members. I personally use " Sherlockians". If I am not mistaken, "
Sherlockians" as a term of address is used by Americans and "
Holmesians" is used by the British . What should we follow? Any
comments?
Sumal

Re. Fred Porlock, I saw this on the web at
http://delahanty.tripod.com/webring/moriarty.html

Any use?:


History
This webring, originally founded by David Rohrman aka Professor Moriarty,
was passed onto Rick Freeman aka Fred Porlock at Yoxley Old Place when David
graduated from his college and could no longer keep his website nor his
ring. It has now passed onto me, as Porlock did not want to maintain two
separate webrings on the same subject indefinitely. I, Cress, aka Miss
Roylott in Sherlockian circles, shall do my best to maintain the ring to the
satisfaction of the members. Here is a quotation about the original
Moriarty, our ring's namesake:

For years past I have continually been conscious ... of some deep organized
power which forever stands in the way of the law... For years I have
endeavoured to break through the veil which shrouded it, and at last the
time came when I seized my thread and followed it until it led me after a
thousand cunning windings to Professor Moriarty... He is the Napoleon of
crime, Watson... He is a genius, a philosopher, an abstract thinker... He
sits motionless, like a spider in the centre of its web, but that web has a
thousand radiations, and he knows well every quiver of each of them.

The Final Problem
No, I don't know why Dave made nearly all the Moriarty ring's graphics and
logos relate to Holmes, rather than Moriarty.

Back to the table of contents





-----Original Message-----
From: SherlockHolmesSocietyofIndia@...
[mailto:SherlockHolmesSocietyofIndia@...] On Behalf Of
sambit96
Sent: 21 January 2006 17:06
To: SherlockHolmesSocietyofIndia@...
Subject: [sherlock holmes society of india] (unknown)

Can anyone tell me the real name of Fred Porlock who used to work
with professor Moriarty?






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Dear Sambit,
  A warm welcome to the SHSI on behalf of all members . Please
introduce yourself so that we all know you. Keep posting and we are
delighted to have you among us.
Sumal

Dear Sherlockians,
  Continuing on the theme of love in the Canon, I think the rough
attitude shown by SH towards the King , has been reflected in The
Adventure of the Noble Bachelor too. Holmes is more sympathetic to
the eloped couple rather than his own client who had engaged him to
find his missing fiancee.
  I agree with sridhar when he says that SH was sympathetic to love
when in general particularly so when it involves other people.
  Sumal

Dear Sherlockians,
  I guess we are suffering from a bout of " Prolonged inactivity"
Sumal

Dear Sir,
  I think we discussed the movie extensively earlier. It was quite
disappointing to see a movie produced by Steven Spielperg being so
absolutely cockeyed in its treatment of the subject.
Sumal

Can anyone tell me the real name of Fred Porlock who used to work
with professor Moriarty?

Dear Sridhar,
   Thanks for informing us (me,at least) that "Young SH" was a Spielberg movie.I
saw it on TV but somehow presumed it to be an episode from a serial.It was very
good, as films go but I thought (as many diehard Sherlockians would, I'm sure)
that the concocted story was far too out of character of the character created
by Sir ACD.After all, the child is the father of man and it becomes difficult to
believe how the teenager depicted by Spielberg could grow up to become the man
we know as SH.Obviously, the film was made for audiences who, while knowing who
(and how famous) SH was, are otherwise not so well versed with the canon. This
happens all the time these days while making movies or TV serials  about famous
characters(of bygone times).
   As regards the last para of your letter: Yes, the subject was broached by me
on an earlier occasion. Please see the P.S. under my letter of the 6th Jan 2006.
   Regards to all.
   VPS

sridhar C <cs_gollum@...> wrote:
   Hello Holmesians,

   After the sudden spurt in messages it seems odd not seeing any mails for so
long!

   Yesterday, I watched the Spielberg movie, "Young Sherlock Holmes" written by
Chris Columbus. What surprised me was that Spielberg introduced the love element
of Sherlock Holmes (who is in his teens), a girl called Elizabeth who,
fortunately or unfortunately, dies after being shot by the villain of the piece
(the fencing teacher of Holmes, who at the very end supposedly drowns but comes
back with the new name, Moriarty!). And that's how Spielberg explains Holmes'
bachelorhood.

   Here, Holmes is shown as the budding detective in action against a group of
Egyptial fanatics with lots of blowpipes, fresh mummies, and a wooden pyramid
thrown in for good measure. Oh yes, and there's also the uncle of the girl, a
former professor himself, who is a crank and a genius (a la Leonardo da Vinci)
and Holmes supposedly gets his interest in chemistry from him. Watson, of
course, is there and in fact, the whole movie is a sort of flashback with an
adult Watson telling the story.

   I guess some of our esteemed members might already have watched it (do I
recollect this movie having been discussed before?). For those who haven't, it's
definitely worth a try.


   Sridhar


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Just saw this on www.bun.kyoto-u.ac.jp/~suchii/holmes_4.html when looking up
John Stuart Mill (it's the latter's second centenary of his birth this May).
I wonder if ACD had read Mill's writing?



Prof. Uchii's page



4. Herschel-Mill's theory of induction

Herschel <http://www.bun.kyoto-u.ac.jp/phisci/Gallery/herschel.html> , in
his Preliminary Discourse on the Study of Natural Philosophy (1830)
suggested ten rules of philosophizing. These are rules for discovering and
confirming causal relations which can explain the given phenomena (we will
see some of these rules later). According to him, the objectives of
scientific inquiry are described as follows:

(Q10) The first thing that a philosophic mind considers, when any new
phenomenon presents itself, is its explanation, or reference to an immediate
producing cause. If that cannot be ascertained, the next is to generalize
the phenomenon, and include it, with others analogous to it, in the
expression of some law, in the hope that its consideration, in a more
advanced state of knowledge, may lead to the discovery of an adequate
proximate cause. [sect. 137]

The relation of cause and effect is, according to him, an invariable
connection, i.e. the same cause always produces the same effect (unless, of
course, prevented by some counteracting cause). Notice that, thus
characterized, there is no room for probability in the relation of cause and
effect.

Herschel's ten rules are modified and reorganized by Mill
<http://www.bun.kyoto-u.ac.jp/phisci/Gallery/mill.html>  as his Five Canons
of Induction.

(1) Method of agreement

(2) Method of difference

(3) Joint method of agreement and difference

(4) Method of residues

(5) Method of concomitant variations

The essence of these canons is that they enable us to eliminate hypotheses
which are incompatible with given data and the law of universal causation
(which says, roughly speaking, that every event has a cause).

Let me explain such a process of elimination by a simple example. Suppose
that, after our family dinner, my wife and I began to feel a strong stomach
ache but our two daughters were all right. In order to identity the cause of
our pain, you may analyze the situation in this way: What did they eat
during the dinner? They all had steamed rice, beefsteaks, greenbeans, and a
melon for dessert. Since only the parents feel the pain, its cause must be
in some conditions which are satisfied by both of them, but not by the
children; now the parents like beer, and they had a glass of beer, whereas
the daughters didn't; therefore, that beer must be the cause of the stomach
ache. In this reasoning, both methods of agreement and of difference are
used; and these somehow succeeded in eliminating many factors from the
candidates of cause.

Thus you may think that Mill's method is quite close to Holmes's method of
elimination. But we have to see whether or not Mill's method can capture all
features of Holmesian reasoning.

Mill emphasized the role of induction as a method of (empirical) proof. This
is clear from his distinction between Deductive Method and Hypothetical
Method (what we call hypothetico-deductive method corresponds to the latter,
not the former). The former consists of three steps: induction, deduction,
and verification. By means of induction, we ascertain causes or laws
involved in a given case; next, we combine these causes and laws and
calculate their effects, i.e. we deduce concrete consequences from them; and
finally, we verify whether or not such consequences hold in the actual case.
Hypothetical Method differs from this, in that the step of induction is
absent. We merely assume such causes or laws, deduce particular consequences
from them, and try to verify whether or not they hold (notice that,
according to Mill, even a logical or mathematical truth must be verified
ultimately by referring to experience). Hypothetical Method lacks any proof
of causes and laws by means of induction.

Herschel is not as strict as Mill on this point. But it is clear that
Herschel also aims at some sort of proof by means of his ten rules; so that
he claims that we can obtain certainty in the field of physics. He
distinguishes theoretical certainty and practical certainty, and admits that
the former can be attained only in such fields as mathematics or geometry.
However, he is never in doubt that in many fields of physics we have
attained the latter, practical certainty; and he has a strong belief that
our knowledge by means of scientific inquiry can be certain in that sense.

Then a question arises: Does Holmes share such a belief in the certainty of
scientific knowledge? We will come back to this question after we give a
brief look at what Whewell said about induction.

   _____

To Holmes_1 <http://www.bun.kyoto-u.ac.jp/~suchii/holmes_1.html>

To Holmes_5 <http://www.bun.kyoto-u.ac.jp/~suchii/holmes_5.html>

To Uchii Index <http://www.bun.kyoto-u.ac.jp/~suchii/SUhome.html>

   _____

The sites of Phil. Hist. Science, Kyoto University


  <http://www.bun.kyoto-u.ac.jp/phisci/index.html> index

  <http://www.bun.kyoto-u.ac.jp/phisci/English.html>

  <http://www.bun.kyoto-u.ac.jp/phisci/Gallery/glry_index.html>

  <http://www.bun.kyoto-u.ac.jp/~suchii/SUhome.html>

  <http://www.bun.kyoto-u.ac.jp/~kito/KIhome.html>

  <http://www.bun.kyoto-u.ac.jp/phisci/Newsletters/newslet_index.html>

  <http://www.bun.kyoto-u.ac.jp/phisci/links.html>

  <http://www.bun.kyoto-u.ac.jp/phisci/students.html>

June 21, 1998; last modified Feb. 26, 1999. (c) Soshichi Uchii

suchii@...





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello Holmesians,

   After the sudden spurt in messages it seems odd not seeing any mails for so
long!

   Yesterday, I watched the Spielberg movie, "Young Sherlock Holmes" written by
Chris Columbus. What surprised me was that Spielberg introduced the love element
of Sherlock Holmes (who is in his teens), a girl called Elizabeth who,
fortunately or unfortunately, dies after being shot by the villain of the piece
(the fencing teacher of Holmes, who at the very end supposedly drowns but comes
back with the new name, Moriarty!). And that's how Spielberg explains Holmes'
bachelorhood.

   Here, Holmes is shown as the budding detective in action against a group of
Egyptial fanatics with lots of blowpipes, fresh mummies, and a wooden pyramid
thrown in for good measure. Oh yes, and there's also the uncle of the girl, a
former professor himself, who is a crank and a genius (a la Leonardo da Vinci)
and Holmes supposedly gets his interest in chemistry from him. Watson, of
course, is there and in fact, the whole movie is a sort of flashback with an
adult Watson telling the story.

   I guess some of our esteemed members might already have watched it (do I
recollect this movie having been discussed before?). For those who haven't, it's
definitely worth a try.


   Sridhar


---------------------------------
Yahoo! Photos – Showcase holiday pictures in hardcover
  Photo Books. You design it and we’ll bind it!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear SHians,

   (I might have been an archaeologist myself had things worked out differently!
LOL. But that's incidental too!)

   I believe Holmes does mention to Watson that he did not need to know if there
were nine planets in the Solar System (or something of that sort) because that
knowledge was not of any use to him in his work.

   This and similar such sayings are, I believe, partly a jocular way of saying
that Holmes had much more important information he stored in his brain (140-odd
different types of ashes, for example?) than the "unnecessary" facts like the
one given above. I guess Holmes did actually know such things but did not
consider them to be as important to him as the latter and hence not worth
mentioning.

   Further, it has been often said (though I don't know when and where - by the
way, has anyone read any of Tuesday Lobsang Rampa's books?) that the brain is
capable of storing more than a "finite" amount of information. Hence Holmes did
indeed know of the facts mentioned and these were stored somewhere at the back
in that wonderful "attic" of his.


   Sridhar

Tim Symonds <tim.symonds@...> wrote:

I was out in fields in East Sussex today (and found a hoard of Roman silver
coins, but that's incidental): 'why,' I asked myself,' 'would someone who
attended Oxford or Cambridge in the late Victorian period, as Holmes may
have, not know the Earth travels around the sun?'  How is this possible,
since Classics at the very least would have mentioned Italian astronomers in
the Renaissance period.

Also, a further question: which of the three or four immensely influential
philosophers around Holmes' time could have suggested the brain can only
hold a finite amount of information?  As members will recall, when Watson
informed Holmes the Earth went around the sun, Holmes said he would
immediately clear his memory of such a fact because there was only so much
space in the memory and he needed all of it for his work!

-----Original Message-----
From: SherlockHolmesSocietyofIndia@...
[mailto:SherlockHolmesSocietyofIndia@...] On Behalf Of pinaki
roy
Sent: 10 January 2006 17:08
To: sherlockholmessocietyofindia@...
Subject: [sherlock holmes society of india] Reply to Julia's query

Julia,
                         I do not actually believe in every convention of New
Criticism, but if you ask me, I think Sherlock Holmes really attended
university and graduated, too. Other than his occasional reference to his
university life, his uncanny proficiency in different biochemical
experiments, which are of forensic nature and require high degree of
specialisation, suggests his having had graduated in any science subject - I
would vote for chemistry. Holmes has already had been honoured with a
fellowship of the Royal Society for Chemistry on 16 October 2002. I would
also beg to draw your attention to the list Watson prepares in "A Study in
Scarlet" of Holmes's 'limits' - the detective is noted as possessing
sufficient knowledge in botany, geology, chemistry and anatomy - and the
list itself bears testimony to the fact that Holmes is a scholar. Allen
Eyles, in "Sherlock Holmes: a Centenary Celebration" (London: John Murray,
1986) believes that Holmes first met Watson at the
chemical laboratory of Saint Bartholomew's Hospital, London (pp. 13), and I
do not think that anyone without sufficient educational qualification would
have been allowed to work at the laboratory.

   I would request the other Sherlockians to post their views on this.

   Pinaki Roy
















   From:

   Pinaki Roy,
   Department of English,
   Faculty of Post-graduate Studies,
   Malda College



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I guess Holmes was contemptuous not so much of the King's intelligence as the
way he got all hypocritical and selfish when it came to marriage. Rather than
marrying a commoner with little or no money he looked forward to marrying an
heiress giving scarce thought to how Irene Adler might feel by his betrayal
(even though the q. did not arise since Adler married somebody who was obviously
more to her taste than the King).

   I guess Holmes was partial to "Love" after all, not where he was concerned
(obviously) but in general.


   Sridhar

sumalsn <no_reply@...> wrote:

Dear Sherlockians,
"What a woman -- oh, what a woman!" cried the King of
Bohemia, when we had all three read this epistle. "Did I not tell
you how quick and resolute she was? Would she not have made
an admirable queen? Is it not a pity that she was not on my
level?"
   "From what I have seen of the lady she seems indeed to be on
a very different level to your Majesty," said Holmes coldly.

   "He bowed, and, turning away without observing the hand which
the King had stretched out to him, he set off in my company for
his chambers."
   SH acts with great contempt towards the King. What do you think
would have motivated SH to behave in such a cruel manner? Probably he
considered IA wronged by the King or he had contempt for the King's
intellectual abilities. What do you say ?
Sumal





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You may be right, Bert, that Holmes was pulling Watson's leg, particularly
as they had only relatively recently been introduced to each other.  On the
other hand, re. university, surely Watson would have expressed his
astonishment that 'a university-educated chap' did not know the Earth went
around the sun...
I can see why the author used this amusing device but I feel Doyle should
have used some other example: surely there could be many instances in
Holmes' detective work where knowing the Earth went around the sun could be
useful!  Any suggestions on such instances from our very imaginative
members?!

-----Original Message-----
From: SherlockHolmesSocietyofIndia@...
[mailto:SherlockHolmesSocietyofIndia@...] On Behalf Of Bert
Coules
Sent: 11 January 2006 21:51
To: SherlockHolmesSocietyofIndia@...
Subject: Re: [sherlock holmes society of india] Oxbridge?

Tim Symonds wrote:

> Interesting question though I have never heard of Holmes having any sense
> of
> humour, nor a capacity to derogate himself.

I'd say there was evidence of both to be found in the canon, though
admittedly the examples don't exactly leap off the page.  There's at least
one instance of Holmes making a truly horrendous pun, which I don't think
could have come from a man totally without humour.

I don't see anything in the conversation  you quote to suggest that Holmes
*wasn't* quietly pulling his new acquaintance's leg.

Bert
www.bertcoules.co.uk






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Tim Symonds wrote:

> Interesting question though I have never heard of Holmes having any sense
> of
> humour, nor a capacity to derogate himself.

I'd say there was evidence of both to be found in the canon, though
admittedly the examples don't exactly leap off the page.  There's at least
one instance of Holmes making a truly horrendous pun, which I don't think
could have come from a man totally without humour.

I don't see anything in the conversation  you quote to suggest that Holmes
*wasn't* quietly pulling his new acquaintance's leg.

Bert
www.bertcoules.co.uk

Interesting question though I have never heard of Holmes having any sense of
humour, nor a capacity to derogate himself.

Have a look at the discussion in 'A Study In Scarlet': Watson writes, 'His
ignorance was as remarkable as his knowledge...
My surprise reached a climax when I found incidentally that he was ignorant
of the Copernican Theory and of the composition of the Solar System.  That
any civilized human being in this nineteenth century should not be aware
that the earth traveled round the sun seemed to me to be such an
extraordinary fact that I could hardly realize it.
"You appear to be astonished," he said, smiling at my expression of
surprise. "Now that I do know it I shall do my best to forget it."
'To forget it!"
"You see," he explained, "I consider that a man's brain originally is like a
little empty attic, and you have to stock it with such furniture as you
choose.  A fool takes in lumber of every sort he comes across, so that the
knowledge which might be useful to him gets crowded out, or at best is
jumbled up with a lot of other things, so that he has difficulty in laying
his hands upon it."

-----Original Message-----
From: SherlockHolmesSocietyofIndia@...
[mailto:SherlockHolmesSocietyofIndia@...] On Behalf Of Bert
Coules
Sent: 11 January 2006 18:52
To: SherlockHolmesSocietyofIndia@...
Subject: Re: [sherlock holmes society of india] Oxbridge?

Tim Symonds wrote:

> ...'why,' I asked myself,' 'would someone who
> attended Oxford or Cambridge...  not know the
> Earth travels around the sun?'

Let me ask you a question in return:

Why do you assume that when Holmes confessed that particular ignorance to
Watson, he was being serious?

Bert
www.bertcoules.co.uk




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