Dear Friends,

It is never number or quantity that is the basis of jujdements. If it was
that, then how come Indian art and architecture, which is so prolific and in
much greater number and details, has never found a word in the world history
written by Westerners.

My answer to all this will be a that a few of us really inerested in their
need to develope, in the most ethnic way, may go down and live with them to
know them better.

My experience as an architect and filmmaker has taught me one thing for
sure....never to try to portray the people you hardly know. And if you
must....then you must live with them under their skins .....otherwise you
will hurt their sensibility. Here no one is talking about keeping them out
of the news, but any compassion towards their developement has to be a very
long process of making them aware of their own identity (with respect to the
outside), honouring their kind, and making them aware of all that has gone
wrong.
They are like the Tibetans without a Dalai Lama behind them....in the fear
of being engulfed by big powers.

I always believe that we the people of world have something very special
about us as long as we are a variety. It is this textured fabric that will
make us richer in culture, variety...which will automatically mean
developing as they are doing, rather than, us well meaning beings feel for
their backwardness........This is the time to ask whether we want them to be
as powerfully corrupt as we are, as fanatical as we have become, and as nuo
riche as we have become. Only because we are surviving as bigger numbers a
corrupted system.YES! AT THE BEGGINING OF ANY WORK THERE HAVE TO BE DREAMS,
UTOPIA, & HIGH IDEALS. In collage one of our teachers used to tell us deam
and fly into fantasy, luckily it doesn't cost us money.....to be practical
is saying good bye to the ideal and shaking hands with mediocrity.

Lets joins the Andamanians only to help them not become like us or any other
civilization but build an ideal so that we all may feel a breath of fresh
air about our doomed mankind.

With love
Jayoo Patwardhan


----- Original Message -----
From: <devi@...>
To: <andamanicobar@...>
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 10:31 AM
Subject: Re: RE: [andamanicobar] Fwd: Re: Oram wants to
mainstreamA&Ntribalsinseven years


It is not a question of superiority or inferiority. If we talk
dispassionately, then from an
abstract - albeit "unacceptable" and "cruel" - viewpoint the mere fact that
"our" numbers are more
than "their" numbers shows that "we" are better adapted to today's
environment.

If you can develop a index for human development for all "nations" then
surely you cannot per se
deny that yardstick to "them" and if we apply this yardstick what is their
status.

Whatever we may desire, we do not live in an utopia. The point I am making
is simple - our task is
to balance competing considerations. Right to be left alone by the rest can
be claimed by any one
or group. But most nations-states deny this to others.
In a democracy it is the "will" of the majority that decides but to the
minority who must accept
this decision it is unpleseant but they have to per se put up with it. We
accept this state of
affairs because it furthers the selection of the "group" as a whole.

So long as political boundaries exist the so called right of self
determination stands abrogated
for in any place there will always be that one or two whose "self
determination" has been quelched.

As to their memory being coveted - the reply assumes that I have attempted
to advocate their
"development" into our own clones. That is not the case at all. My
question - somewhat rhetorical
- is that can we deny them information about ourselves and our own
profligacy if you will, so that
they can take informed decision. A decision to remain as they are in
ignorance cannot be equated
with self determination.

To contextualise - was the Taliban right in proscribing the media and the
schooling of women -
after all it was also a matter of self determination by the Taliban? We
cannot escape making
impositions - we always do whether we like it or not. After all pleading
for Sustainable
Development is a form of imposition. Some impositions can be better
defended under certain
paradigms while others cannot be so well defended.

The long and short of the point I am making is simply this - the need is to
balance and allow
"informed decision making" and the make the process transparent and self
sustaining without too
much of value overloading.
devi
----- Original Message -----
From: C. R. Bijoy
To: andamanicobar@...
Sent: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 06:54:38 -0000 (GMT)
Subject: Re: RE: [andamanicobar] Fwd: Re: Oram wants to mainstream
A&Ntribalsinseven years

There are a number of issues that emerges from the ongoing discussion:
1. National affiliation are quite deliberate - brutally deliberate in the
case of all subjugated people, minorities etc. That is historically
speaking.
2. An assumption that "our" civilisation is superior to "theirs". This
follows the linear notion of progress, development and civilization which
are not substantiated by history, archeology etc.
3. An assumption that "our" life is better and "theirs" is not better.
4. For us they are "isolated" [but for them that state constitute
"freedom"] which we do not really understand as we belong to a society of
enslavers and slaves.
5. Who says that "they" are not developed..that development has skipped
them by..the ethnobiologists nor the biotechnologist and the MNCs would
not agree as these people do have in them etched in their memory the
biological map of their area of such economic significance that their
memory is coveted.....
6. Indigenous peoples have never remained frozen in time nor are they
fossilised. They too have progressed, developed, civilized etc on their
own terms. This process of evolution has also meant that they learnt from
the "outside" world as well as gave to the outside world.
7. Just as the fake notion of wilderness (manufactured in US) where
forests exist in isolation from human species, there is this notion that
there are some human (or is sub-human for some) species that have never
had any sort of contacts with the outside.....for eons until now......

The real question is that the "outside" has no right to impose their will
on them nor invade their territories so that the territories can be
colonized which are legitimized by the spacious false fraudulant mission
of civilizing and humanising and developing them. They as people have the
right to self-determine what constitutes best for them in their situation.


Bijoy

> THe points made are general and not confined to A&N alone. It applies all
> "indigenous" peoples.
>
> Firstly national affiliations are more often than not matters of accidents
> - historical,
> geographical temporal or all the three. They are as much Indian as any
> one or the other of us -
> When we were born into the political entity we are bound to it.
>
> As to imposing "civilisations" do we have a right not to try and make
> their life better? Can we be
> so selfish as to say we need not worry about these "independant" people
> merely because they have
> been so far isolated? If such an argument were to apply to A&N it could
> very well apply to every
> emancipation programme all over the world.
>
> The point - as always - is to strike the right balance - to respect their
> individuality without
> denying them access to development. That they should be granted the right
> to choose developmental
> model within the overall political framework - just as every other
> community ought to be whether it
> it the tribals of Narmad valley or the citizens of Delhi- cannot be
> controverted.
>
> We should seek this balancing of conflicts. Conflicts are the sine qua
> non of biological
> existence. What we should guard against is that the jarawa and
> snetinelese do not go the way of
> several tribes that have vanished.
>
> Brownie points do not matter
>
> devi
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: ANANT
> To: andamanicobar@...
> Sent: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 11:33:02 +0530
> Subject: RE: [andamanicobar] Fwd: Re: Oram wants to mainstream A&N
> tribalsinseven years
>
> Regarding agenda setting for development, in the case of the ethnic people
> of the Andamans, there is a distinct difference from the history of the
> mainland.
> Their anthropological isolation from us must make us cautious about
> imposing
> our agenda on them. They have quite obviously been independent in every
> sense of the term. Ideally, they should simply be left alone. The Orams of
> our polity need not look for brownie points about having "civilized"
> anyone.
> We have a huge population even otherwise, and if the plight of the
> wretched
> among us is alleviated, they can feel satisfied with their performance.
> There is also the question of geo-political identity. Do we have the right
> to control a people merely because of political boundaries granted to us?
> In
> what way are they "Indian," for us to assume the role of controlling their
> destiny? There is not even the question of informed consent here, because
> they are not in a position to assess the alternative, in the face of or
> corruptive influence.
>
> G.Ananthakrishnan, Chennai, India.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Meena Menon [mailto:cats@...]
> Sent: 04 November 2003 19:06
> To: andamanicobar@...
> Subject: Re: [andamanicobar] Fwd: Re: Oram wants to mainstream A&N tribals
> inseven years
>
> Dear Rainer and others
> I visited the Andamans islands as a tourist a couple of years ago and
> drove
> through the ATR- a road that caused the deaths of so many Jarawa. The
> local
> administration has actually put up signs along this road saying beware of
> Jarawa as if they are some dangerous creatures. While the government has
> infested the beautiful islands with other settlers, there is no attempt to
> understand the indigenous tribes. In fact the local people are hostile to
> the Jarawa and often beat them up. The Jarawa dressed flamboyantly dressed
> in red, often stop the cars and beg for food. It was a horrific sight to
> witness. I think we have taken away their beautiful islands and ruined
> them
> as a people. In fact contact with our so called wonderful civilisation has
> decimated these people- there was a huge measles epidemic among them after
> some "wellintentioned" government efforts to give them food some years
> ago.
> Oram is only furthering this stupid process and will probably finish off
> what remains of these people.
> I saw at that time that some people were interacting with the Jarawa and
> liasing with them. They have become bizarre tourist attractions - and know
> tourists can give them food- in fact they stopped our vehicle and took
> away
> some things- this is the result of their contact with our great world.
> I really dont know what can be done?am not even sure tourism is such a
> great
> idea having been there once and seen the damage we tourists can cause. The
> Jarawa seem so remote from all this- how can we help them? CAn someone who
> has studied them give any constructive ideas? Is leaving them alone the
> best
> option?
> meena
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rainer Hoerig" <rainer@...>
> To: <andamanicobar@...>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 1:53 PM
> Subject: Re: [andamanicobar] Fwd: Re: Oram wants to mainstream A&N tribals
> in seven years
>
>
> Dear Sugato,
>
> you have raised a point that is indeed relevant in the situation of the
> Andaman tribes people. The world they are living in is indeed so
> different from the one we "civilized" have created around us that it is
> very difficult to imagine a meaningful communication happening between
> those two worlds. For instance, if you would meet a Jarawa on M.G. Road,
> what would you like to tell him? Even if you meet within their own
> habitat, the forest, what will you talk about - the weather, latest
> Bollywood movie, the war in Irak?
>
> The Andaman tribes people are different in the way that their contact
> with modern way of life is nearly nothing. You may visit Adivasi
> villages in Madhya Pradesh or Jharkhand for instance and you will be
> able to talk to these people in Hindi at least and you can ask them
> about their problems and how they imagine them to be solved. After a
> visit to the Islands about two years ago I can tell you: Encountering a
> Jarawa you are lost of speech, you do not know their habits, you cannot
> judge their reactions. How then can you try to find out whether they
> like the settlers or not, whether they would like to have a road through
> their forest home or not? Well, in case of the road at least, they have
> made their stand very clear by raiding the construction camps many
> times. But in many other issues, it is not that easy.
>
> Mr. Oram is a catastrophe. He is an Indian Uncle Tom. How can he decide
> what is best for the tribes people in the Andamans whom he has never
> encountered? We should enshure that nothing is been forced on the jungle
> dwellers, that they can exercise their free will towards development or
> not. Development again is a construct of our world with hardly any
> relevance to theirs.
>
> A last point I would like to make.
>
> In the discussion about tourism it is good to first stick in your pole
> and express your doubts about the harmfull effect on the tribes people.
> I presume that if the administration would simultanously close the road
> and effectively take care that no intrusion by settlers can happen into
> the tribes territories, then I can see not reason why the visit of
> tourists on other islands may harm the Jarawas. Instead of fundamentally
> opposing the tourism plan, why not try to strike a bargain by putting
> the closure of the ATR as a precondition? Anyway, after the closure of
> most forest operation the island's economy needs some push, some new
> direction. I think that tourism, if done in an ecological friendly
> matter, is not the worst option for the A & N islands.
>
> Any comments? I would be glad.
>
> Rainer Hoerig, correspondent for German media in Pune
>
>
>
> Pankaj Sekhsaria schrieb:
>
>>disgusting_100 <disgusting_100@...> wrote:Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003
> 14:09:38 -0000
>>From: "disgusting_100"
>>To: andamanicobar-owner@...
>>Subject: Re: Oram wants to mainstream A&N tribals in seven years
>>
>>Its a very interesting perspective.
>>A political leader wants his ethnic group to mainstream and an NGO
>>thinks it shouldnt happen
>>
>>Lots of value judgements happening here
>>Fundamentally - why should an ethnic group remain in the way it had
>>for millenia when the world around them is changing
>>
>>And who decides to exclude them from the "benefits" of "development"
>>(I guess I also mean who defines "benefits" and "develo
> pment")
>>Who indeed decides the tribal "cause"?
>>
>>Hmmmmm
>>
>>Sugato
>>
>>
>>--- In andamanicobar@..., "pankajandaman"
>>
>>wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Dear Friends,
>>>Hindustantimes.com is running a special series of five articles on
>>>
>>>
>>the
>>
>>
>>>situation on the Andaman and Nicobar Islands. The third article
>>>
>>>
>>that
>>
>>
>>>was
>>>posted today, quotes the Tribal Welfare Minister and his plans for
>>>mainstreaming the A&N tribals in the next seven years.
>>>A worse fate for these tribal people could not have been conceived.
>>>The story is pasted below and so is the link, which will help you
>>>access the
>>>other stories as well give you an oppurtunity to post your opinion
>>>
>>>
>>in
>>
>>
>>>the
>>>matter
>>>Pankaj Sekhsaria
>>>(Kalpavriksh)
>>>
>>>Minister pokes stuffy nose in tribal matter
>>>Shailesh Shekhar | Friday, October 31, 2003
>>>
>>> http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/specials/andaman/jualoram.html
>>>
>>>
>>>If Union Tribal Welfare Minister Jual Oram has his way, by 2009 no
>>>tribal of
>>>the Andaman and Nicobar Islands will anymore be part of the
>>>
>>>
>>Primitive
>>
>>
>>>Tribe
>>>Groups.
>>>Since 2002, his ministry has been working steadfastly to "reform
>>>
>>>
>>the
>>
>>
>>>tribals
>>>and assimilate them with the mainstream." This is despite a court
>>>order,
>>>stopping all attempts to interfere either with the tribals or
>>>
>>>
>>their
>>
>>
>>>ways of
>>>life and living.
>>>Minus the Nicobarese, the Jarawas, the Sentinalese, the Shompens,
>>>
>>>
>>the
>>
>>
>>>Onges
>>>and the Great Andamanese are currently classified under the
>>>
>>>
>>Primitive
>>
>>
>>>Tribe
>>>Group (PTG) by the tribal affairs ministry. (Indeed, this is the
>>>first time
>>>the Government of India has a separate ministry on Tribal Affairs
>>>
>>>
>>and
>>
>>
>>>a
>>>Cabinet rank minister to head it.)
>>>The minister says the PTG development has been a focus area for the
>>>ministry. In 2002, the ministry drafted a seven-year plan to take
>>>
>>>
>>the
>>
>>
>>>category tribes out of the group. Currently, 75 tribes in India
>>>
>>>
>>are
>>
>>
>>>part of
>>>the PTG.
>>>The minister says earlier efforts "proved disastrous" because of
>>>
>>>
>>the
>>
>>
>>>gap
>>>between the plans and their implementation at every level -
>>>economically,
>>>culturally and socially. "This time, we are engaging with NGOs
>>>
>>>
>>such as
>>
>>
>>>Ramakrishna Mission, and our Project Officers are going to be in
>>>constant
>>>touch with the tribes to take care in every possible manner."
>>>The minister, of course, has assured himself that his plan neither
>>>violates
>>>court orders and nor interferes with tribal life. ".we just want
>>>
>>>
>>to
>>
>>
>>>know
>>>about them. It is not right to leave them as is. They should
>>>
>>>
>>realise
>>
>>
>>>their
>>>surroundings - that a human race exists around them.
>>>.we will deal with them anthropologically. People only offer
>>>suggestions, we
>>>want solutions."
>>>On whether the Government of India has formulated any guidelines
>>>
>>>
>>for
>>
>>
>>>the
>>>local administration vis-à-vis the handling of the tribals, he
>>>says, "we
>>>have asked them not to make the life of tribals difficult."
>>>
>>>Mr Oram is also certain that the Tourism Ministry plans for
>>>
>>>
>>Andaman
>>
>>
>>>and
>>>Nicobar Islands must be implemented. "Tourism should happen. It
>>>
>>>
>>will
>>
>>
>>>not
>>>disturb the tribals. They are a little away. Moreover, we will have
>>>restrictions."
>>>Incidentally, the minister is not part of the nodal group which
>>>
>>>
>>has
>>
>>
>>>drafted
>>>the grand plan for tourism in the Bay of Bengal archipelago
>>>
>>>Samir Acharya of Society for Andaman & Nicobar Society (SANE),
>>>
>>>
>>which
>>
>>
>>>has
>>>been working overtime for the tribals' cause, says the ministry's
>>>plan need
>>>to be shelved immediately.
>>>
>>>"It is the worst possible plan. They will never get away with it.
>>>They have
>>>almost finished the Andamanese and the Onges under the guise of
>>>ameliorating
>>>their living conditions. This plan should not be touched with a 20-
>>>feet-long
>>>pole."
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Kalpavriksh
>>>Apt. 5, Sri Dutta Krupa,
>>>908 Deccan Gymkhana
>>>Pune 411004
>>>India
>>>Tel: + 91 20 5654239 / 5675450
>>>Fax: 5654239
>>>Email: kvriksh@v...
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Yahoo! India Matrimony: Find your partner online.Post your profile.
>>
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