Saumitri,
Those who know me well know that I am not a US or World Bank fan and that I do
not
restrict myself to the role of an academic, nor do I advocate charity and
dependency
models of development.

It is obvious that you are convinced that the "trickle down theory" works and
that you
believe those who are opposed to the neoliberal paradigm of economic growth and
fail to
see evidence of the spread happening at the BOP are "ranting" and are either
"pessimist
academics" or "bourgeois tea-table India bashers" as opposed to "caring" and
"democratic" designers like yourself. Wonder who is really "ranting" here!

Frankly, I find the constant "bashing of academics" on this forum to be less
than
"democratic."

I am withdrawing from this discussion and wish you all the best in finding
someone else to
vent at.
Uma

--- In designindia@..., "saumitri" <saumitri_c@...> wrote:
>
> Uma,
>
> As you say yourself, I certainly see pessimism in your mail. But what
> does this pessimism do, except provide for academic and bourgeois
> tea-table India bashing? What positive outcome does it bring?
>
> You say:
> "I would
> > also question whether "expansion of opportunities" alone without
> > adequate "capacity building" and "political and economic empowerment"
> > will really enable those at the bottom of the social and political
> > hierarchy to take advantage of such opportunities. "
>
> So what exactly is this capacity building? How is this different from
> opportunity creation? How can you actually create opportunities
> without capacity building?
>
> As far as "political and economic empowerment" is concerned, tell me
> how you can do that without opportunity creation? What have we as
> people and government not done? Infact we have made a mockery of
> reservations by over-utilizing it in politics, in jobs, in education
> and where not. If you don't grow the pie, what use is it to create
> more and more representation in the same pie?
>
> In a population as huge as us, how soon do you want the benefits of
> anything to trickle down? We all blabber over corruption and yet each
> one of us doesn't miss an opportunity to be corrupt. In such a
> scenario its nice to sit down in an academic setting and say things.
> For a country so long enslaved, I don't think we have faired poorly on
> any count in the progress we have made in 60 or so years.
>
> Yes, we have moved slowly - but in a country not used to democratic
> institutions, its a great achievement that we have been able to keep
> that intact and move slowly. I am willing to take time, use democratic
> consensus and move at the pace we are moving - this is a price I am
> willing to pay for democracy. Do you want to give up on democracy?
>
> You talk about Nandigram - what do you know about it? Thousands of
> Bengali migrant labour today throng Delhi and Mumbai and other big
> cities, working as slave housemaids, rickshaw pullers, sex workers in
> brothels or marry rich Punjabi farmers out of poverty - this is what
> communism has done to Bengal. If the government there is taking to
> industrialization, it is not out of love for industrialists - they
> have to do it for the people themselves. Ofcourse, Nandigram was done
> in a hurry and without explaining the whole context to people and I am
> sure the govt there would have learnt a lesson from this rather hasty
> and over-confident action. But Nandigram can't become a benchmark for
> pessimists to harp on. The direction towards a wholistic industry +
> agri formulation is required and it is a necessity.
>
> You say:
> "...Sadly, the safety nets that the state earlier provided for the poor
> > are being dismantled...the "growth" predicted by the neoliberal
> economists has been
> > restricted to the middle and upper classes of Indian society."
>
> Ofcourse, the rich benefit from opening up of an economy in the
> beginning. But as we have seen, now the middle class too has started
> to benefit from enterprise. And this will spread to the lower strata
> as well. And this need not be done as charity by the government, as
> you are probably expecting - charity is not a sustainable model. This
> will happen inevitably because its not as if the lower strata is not
> gaining awareness - and each one of them is already standing up and
> seeking enterprise. I would rather work on a model that enables and
> facilitates enterprise amongst the lower strata, rather then enslaving
> them and crippling them with sops and govt. charity.
>
> And its not as if people are not doing this. You yourself mention
> Indus Tree. I have myself been lucky enough to spend sometime at Dr.
> Kalbag's Vigyan-ashram in Pabal and see local enterprise at work.
> Also, the youth today is more optimistic and many of us are actually
> taking up socially relevant enterprise. There is a growing realization
> of this "inclusiveness" - so what are you ranting about?
>
> I would suggest that all academics leave academia and start doing
> socially useful productive work (SUPW, it was called in my school) and
> create enterprise and "build capacity", rather than harp on seeking
> charity from the government.
>
> And we don't need the world bank to tell us that we have not had
> equitable distribution of wealth. Anyone who lives in this country
> knows that. But then we need alternative mechanisms that work in our
> context. Bangladesh didn't need a world bank expert to guide them on
> creating small finance - a local bred entrepreneur created the Gramin
> Bank.
>
> By the way, the new form of entrepreneurship that will work in the
> coming years will use small entrepreneurs (farmers, cottage industry,
> landlords, etc) as shareholders in an enterprise. Land will be leased
> out from these shareholders instead of acquiring land as in SEZs today
> and the shareholders themselves will become part of the vendorship for
> that enterprise. Large industry owners will have to give up ownership
> and collaborate because that will be cost-effective for them. This is
> the future of industry tomorrow.
>
> Have patience - believe in my generation(now already aging :-)...) and
> the younger ones. Since our older generation couldn't do anything but
> crib - we will make things happen.
>
> Best regards,
> Saumitri
>
>
>
>
> --- In designindia@..., "Uma V Chandru"
> <umavchandru@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Saumitri,
> >
> > In my previous mail on this issue, I was not "restricting" this
> > argument to the workplace/hiring, but merely relating to the context
> > of previous emails on this issue and to my academic one.
> >
> > I agree that designers need a changed mindset -to "caring" and
> > practices that foster "equal opportunities." I would add that it
> > should be one that is one that is truly "inclusive", "equitable",
> > "open minded" and "tolerant" and expand to all arenas of their
> > practice and education.
> >
> > With regard to comparisons between India and US, I agree that US is
> > not necessarily the best example to aspire to in all situations- they
> > have had affirmative action and equaly opportunity laws for several
> > years and we know that poverty, racism and other forms of
> > discrimination persist in America and may have gotten worse inr ecent
> > years. And the conservatives apointed by Bush in the Supreme court
> > have already begun to initiate retrograde decisions.
> >
> > As for India, I am not convinced that we have really "been able to
> > maintain sanity and devise means of equal representation" and I would
> > also question whether "expansion of opportunities" alone without
> > adequate "capacity building" and "political and economic empowerment"
> > will really enable those at the bottom of the social and political
> > hierarchy to take advantage of such opportunities.
> >
> > Our entrepreneurs may be creating more opportunities for a few
> > (especially in the middle and upper classes), but I am not convinced
> > that their actions or that of the communist state of West Bengal
> > (e.g. Nandigram) or other political and the business classes are
> > necessarily in the right direction. I may be overly pessimistic`here,
> > but I also doubt that most of our entrepreneurs, given their mindset
> > of profit maximization will really care about creating wealth and
> > opportunities for the large majority of those at the BOP.
> >
> > There is increasing evidence (including a World Bank study) that the
> > economic and social growth and "opportunities" have not been
> > "inclusive" or "equitable" and that the divide is actually widening.
> > Sadly, the safety nets that the state earlier provided for the poor
> > are being dismantled in favor of the few Indian entrepreneurs and TNCs
> > and the "growth" predicted by the neoliberal economists has been
> > restricted to the middle and upper classes of Indian society.
> >
> > Perhaps innovative "social entreprenuership" models like Neelam's and
> > Gita Ram's Indus Tree could be one of the examples worth emulating
> > here. Would like to know if there are others like this.
> >
> > best wishes
> > Uma
> > Srishti
> >
> >
> > --- In designindia@..., "saumitri" <saumitri_c@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Uma, good that you moved the idea of discrimination beyond sex to age
> > > and to the physically and the mentally challenged. But then, if you
> > > are talking about raising the bar for design, why restrict this
> > > argument to workplace and hiring?
> > >
> > > As designers, people who create products and systems, there is a
> > > larger issue. Its about a whole mindset - a mindset that cares for
> > > people of all kinds while designing something.
> > >
> > > The discrimination towards pedestrians while constructing roads is an
> > > example. Not only do we construct roads without footpaths but while
> > > constructing the road we provide no arrangement for the pedestrian to
> > > use the road. Its as if only the car driving public pays taxes.
> > >
> > > The discrimination that bus signages have in several states towards
> > > people from other states or even country is another example. Its a
> > > political issue for sure. But as a designer, and as the common user
> > > its a discrimination nonetheless.
> > >
> > > There are many others that can be brought out.
> > >
> > > As far as comparisons with the US and Europe are concerned - in a
> > > country with our kind of population, where opportunity itself is
> > > something everyone needs to fight for; where you need reservations to
> > > ensure some kind of opportunity; where soon the "general category"
> > > will need to ask for reservations - what kind of "equal" opportunity
> > > do you expect? Inspite of all our odds, we have been able to maintain
> > > sanity and devise means of equal representation at some levels. The
> > > most needed thing now is the expansion of opportunity itself.
> > >
> > > Its not that India is not doing anything about it. Our entrepreneurs
> > > have generated self-belief and are now creating more opportunities.
> > > Even the communist state of West Bengal is on a growth path to create
> > > opportunity. The political and the business class are in the right
> > > direction.
> > >
> > > Its not that designers in India are not doing anything about it. The
> > > Delhi Metro is a good example of a system where several things have
> > > been kept in mind - the facility for blind and disabled to board the
> > > train; signages that are consistent and have been contextualized and
> > > more. But then there is still more to be done.
> > >
> > > But then we need more of this design "caring" to pervade all aspects
> > > of our life. Equal opportunity is a mindset - and equal opportunity at
> > > work will only come if we look at providing equal opportunity in all
> > > aspects of our social life.
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > > Saumitri
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In designindia@..., "Uma V Chandru"
> > > <umavchandru@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > No offense meant to you personally Shveta -but thankyou Mahesh for
> > > raising the bar for
> > > > design in India and pointing to the need to end discriminatory ads
> > > and workplace policies
> > > > (design as well as other) in India, including in educational
> > > institutions. We are yet to
> > > > ensure universal design practices in our workplaces.
> > > >
> > > > It is time for Indian companies and educational instititutions to
> > > wake up and begin looking
> > > > more seriously at true "diversity"and ensure "universal design"
> > > practice in the workplace
> > > > and avoid discrimination in any form against any age, community,
> > > race, color, gender,
> > > > sexual preference, etc.
> > > >
> > > > Faculty in most US colleges have no retirement age bar and many
> > > colleges are hiring/have
> > > > hired women presidents (including Harvard, MIT, Purdue, etc) and
> > > some US politicians have
> > > > openly declared their sexual preference without fear.
> > > >
> > > > Wondering how many companies and institutions amongst us have hired
> > > and not
> > > > discriminated against mentally and physically less abled people .
> > > >
> > > > Uma Chandru
> > > > Srishti
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In designindia@..., "mahesh_joglekar"
> > > <mahesh_joglekar@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In designindia@..., "shvetaverma_18"
> > > > > <shvetaverma_18@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > Shweta
> > > > > Clearly I have heart your feelings..
> > > > >
> > > > > >I am not denying that there are no such adverts in Australia
> > however
> > > > > by any yardstick I see lot more open discrimination in Indian
> > adverts
> > > > > Now if you don't like India's mistake pointed out and if I have
> > heart
> > > > > your feelings then I am sorry...but I donlt think I am 100% wrong
> > > in my
> > > > > observation!
> > > > > I won't feel bad if you point out negatives about Australia
> > > > > My point was the openness about such filtering in adverts...
> > > > > Rather people as consumers not realizing this discrimination by
> > > > > employers in India reason is Employers don't care they know if
> > > anybody
> > > > > complaints then there woudl be 100 other applicants.
> > > > > ANy way since this is not a major Design related topic I stop it
> > > from
> > > > > my side
> > > > > Mahesh
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>