Hi all

I have tried several times (not less than three times)
to register myself.  Till date I have not received any
confirmation in my mail ID.

I suppose NID site has a better engine to handle such
registrations (at least better than irctc).

Can someone help me (persons responsible at NID should
respond specifically) to register. What's going wrong?

Let's talk about design for 'usability' right here.

Siddharth Dash
AEP Product Design 1992
Mumbai


--- Manish Joshi <manish@...> wrote:
> Hi all
> I am forwarding a mail from NID requesting the
> alumni to register
> themselves at the NID website
>
> Forwarded message attached-
> ***********************************
> Hi!
>
> This is webmaster from NID.  As you have registered
> on to graduate
> directory
>
(<http://www.nid.edu/graduates>www.nid.edu/graduates),
> kindly ask
> your NID graduate friends to register and update
> their profiles.  So far
> 1060 students have been graduated from NID but only
> 150 of them registered
> and updated their profiles.  Therefore, I request
> you to spread this
> message among your NID graduate friends to update
> their profiles as early
> as possible.
>
> Thank you!
>
>   Regards
> webmaster
>

________________________________________________________________________
Yahoo! India Matrimony: Find your life partner online
Go to: http://yahoo.shaadi.com/india-matrimony

Tony,

Putting forward names in a forum such as this is only an act of
dissent since other reasonable efforts didn't pay off. From an ethical
standpoint, this sort of naming is fine, even if you find it
contemptible. In US dissenters cite the first amendment to say what
they think without fear. A lot of debate on Bush't policies happens
online. If it was in the power of such individuals or groups, they
would stop funding Bush's programs. Even this forum has no power to
prevent or stop businesses from operating they way they wish to. It
can only voice it. Recently an employee of Google lost his job for
posting his frank views on Google strategy in his blog. In the case a
Shaw Wallace or BPL were to hear that someone or a few 'black listed'
them on this forum, they may choose to not work with those people. The
point is in the first place the designer herself may decline to work!
Finally, in the context of a civil debate, I think it is perfectly
valid, unless you are legally constrained from mentioning names to do
so. Its in such a debate that you realize how many cases exist and
that hey this is not an isolated odd happening but an industry thing,
and so maybe we need to do something...this sort of debate is good. I
think this sharing is more powerful as something requiring designers
action at a body level to prevent such occurences...maybe it will
translate into a design body level legal cell (much like CII's IPR
cell) to advice designers. For e.g. screen writers in US have a
non-profit body where you could register your script before sharing
with possibly unscruplous producers so that your ideas are not
flicked. Any action of this kind can be debated only when we realize
the extent of the problem. Sharing names is more about this, IMHO,
than to give you a tip "buddy don't touch those guys" kind of thing.
After all, when we go back to our businesses, whom to approach or tap
for growing your topline is an individual business decision - like
George said - tick it off in your head. Factor that into your
discussion. A money lender does that too. That's natural. Maybe, on a
serious note, setting up 'theyhaven'tpaidme.com' (after giving Deepak
15%) is not so practical, but treat that as a signal or a consensus
that errant companies need to amend their ways and puttin pressure in
a civil way is good.
I have a thing for disclaimers, so in this context let me add that I
have never practiced as an independent designer and have remained a
salaried guy all along and don't know what it really is like out
there. So call me an ignoramus if you have to. BTW, I worked in BPL
1993-95 and did hire design services...paying them was tough despite
it being a budgeted item...BPL accounts had something on showing
healthy cash flows and parted with money with some pain. I was
persona-non grata in their accounts office (especially to one
Mr.Panicker, who called me into his chambers and warned me not to
trouble his poor accountants...there I was fighting for a cause).

Regards,

Sridhar Dhulipala
NID PD 1993
Infosys, Bangalore

On Apr 1, 2005 11:23 AM, icarus design <icarusdesign@...> wrote:
> Dear Anthony,
> what you say is correct, but get this, this is not by any means an official
> forum, currently we are indulging ourselves with a bit of gossip,
> about inviting the client........forget it, this is gossip friend keep it
> like that.
> For once it is not bad to pass on a few names ..... and i think the
> implication is not to take all this too seriously and paint anyone black.
> keep the names in the back of your mind and put a mark on it, actually come
> to think of it, chances are that people are going to be working
> with them anyway,
> There is this company based in blore called BEE PEE EL [see no names ] which
> every one and their father knows dont pay......as far as i know
> enough designers have worked with them and got burnt and every one of them
> knew the risk,
> so i agree with you about not painting anyone black, the idea is to keep it
> in the family so that who ever wants to use this piece of information can
> use it.
> george
> icarus design
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Anthony Lopez
> To: designindia@...
> Sent: Friday, April 01, 2005 10:24 AM
> Subject: Re: [designindia] Re: further
>
>
>
>   L  O  P  E  Z     D  E  S  I  G  N
>
>
> Hi! Everybody
>
> I professionally think the idea of arbitrarily blacklisting clients is not a
> good one.
>
> Let us all remember that we all belong to a common business environment and
> the relationship should be mutual.
>
> We are assuming that we are right about our individual judgement that the
> client has not paid us for the wrong reasons. And therefore paint him black.
> I would like to believe it true for most cases. Let us remind ourselves
> that, although this forum is an informal one it is gaining power with every
> additional member. Due deligence and deliberation is required on how we
> conduct ourselves to create a healthy professional environment for all.
>
> I am of total agreement that this forum needs to discuss such issues and
> more. But if we want to name the client then we should take the trouble to
> include the client in our  discussion.
>
> Yes, we can also form a formal committee where there is a panel making the
> final call and then blacklisting clients and designers. Or together we can
> form a body which has its own lawyers. And post cases we have won.
>
> But what is most significant is to continue discussing how to safeguard our
> interest and being able to make a legal case of the same. And every case won
> will add to the strength of our profession and become a platform to fight
> the next.
>
> Namaste
>
> Anthony Lopez
> PEP Visual communication 1990, NID
>
> Lopez design, New Delhi
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Sridhar Dhulipala <s.dhuli@...>
> Reply-To: <designindia@...>
> Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 19:10:51 +0530
> To: <designindia@...>
> Subject: Re: [designindia] Re: further
>
> Brownie points: If Reliance Infocom goes to Anil Ambani, I wonder if
> it will improve chances for RIL listing on youhaventpaidme.com site
> running on Rel Infocomm infrastructure (assuming they provide hosting
> services, of course). Maybe the site should be hosted on Tata VSNL
> infrastructure since Tata group companies are presumedly ethical in
> honouring contracts.
> ;-)
>
> Sridhar Dhulipala
>
>
> On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 01:59:27 -0800 (PST), Hemant Suthar
> <hsuthar@...> wrote:
> > RELIANCE INDUSTRIES LIMITED
> >
> >
> > --- Sudhir Sharma <sudhirelephant@...> wrote:
> > >
> > > good idea deepak,
> > > and about yr 15%...you may have to be the first one
> > > to list on the
> > > site...
> > > seriously good idea..we could start with naming them
> > > here..on this
> > > group.
> > > sudhir
> > >
> > > --- In designindia@..., "deepak
> > > pathania"
> > > <dpathania@h...> wrote:
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Make Yahoo! your home page
> > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> > To visit your group on the web, go to:
> > http://in.groups.yahoo.com/group/designindia/
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > designindia-unsubscribe@...
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://in.groups.yahoo.com/group/designindia/
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> designindia-unsubscribe@...
> <mailto:designindia-unsubscribe@...?subject=Unsubscribe>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
> <http://in.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> I use Burrotech's free email (POP & SMTP) server with anti-virus support,
> Office Mail - giving everyone on the LAN internal and external email.
> Get Office Mail free at www.burrotech.com.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://in.groups.yahoo.com/group/designindia/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> designindia-unsubscribe@...
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
>
>

Asok Abraham George
Design Lead
Volvo Truck Corporation
Gothenburg Sweden


Perhaps I've been living in Sweden for too long...........

But posting for a job specifing gender would never be accepted here. Its
like saying "only whites need apply".

I think such attitudes should not encouraged by the design community in
India.

ASOK


>From: "Arvind Lodaya" <emailarvind@...>
>Reply-To: designindia@...
>To: <designindia@...>
>Subject: [designindia] "male fabric" designer!!1
>Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 08:31:24 +0530
>
>This is how Pradyumna's post showed up in my mailbox, and I think it is
>deliciously ironic!
>BTW: What exactly is a "male fabric" and how does it differ from a "female
>fabric"?
>   Message: 4
>      Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 11:41:49 +0530 (IST)
>      From: "Pradyumna Vyas" <pradyumna@...>
>   Subject: Requirement of a Male Fabric Designer
>
>   [This message is not in displayable format]

_________________________________________________________________
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----- Original Message -----

From: Anthony Lopez

To: designindia@...

Sent: Friday, April 01, 2005 10:24 AM

Subject: Re: [designindia] Re: further

  L  O  P  E  Z     D  E  S  I  G  N       

Hi! Everybody

I professionally think the idea of arbitrarily blacklisting clients is not a good one.

Let us all remember that we all belong to a common business environment and the relationship should be mutual.

We are assuming that we are right about our individual judgement that the client has not paid us for the wrong reasons. And therefore paint him black. I would like to believe it true for most cases. Let us remind ourselves that, although this forum is an informal one it is gaining power with every additional member. Due deligence and deliberation is required on how we conduct ourselves to create a healthy professional environment for all.

I am of total agreement that this forum needs to discuss such issues and more. But if we want to name the client then we should take the trouble to include the client in our  discussion.

Yes, we can also form a formal committee where there is a panel making the final call and then blacklisting clients and designers. Or together we can form a body which has its own lawyers. And post cases we have won.

But what is most significant is to continue discussing how to safeguard our interest and being able to make a legal case of the same. And every case won will add to the strength of our profession and become a platform to fight the next.

Namaste

Anthony Lopez
PEP Visual communication 1990, NID

Lopez design, New Delhi

---

From: Sridhar Dhulipala <s.dhuli@...>
Reply-To: <designindia@...>
Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 19:10:51 +0530
To: <designindia@...>
Subject: Re: [designindia] Re: further

Brownie points: If Reliance Infocom goes to Anil Ambani, I wonder if
it will improve chances for RIL listing on youhaventpaidme.com site
running on Rel Infocomm infrastructure (assuming they provide hosting
services, of course). Maybe the site should be hosted on Tata VSNL
infrastructure since Tata group companies are presumedly ethical in
honouring contracts.
;-)

Sridhar Dhulipala


On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 01:59:27 -0800 (PST), Hemant Suthar
<hsuthar@...> wrote:
> RELIANCE INDUSTRIES LIMITED
>
>
> --- Sudhir Sharma <sudhirelephant@...> wrote:
> >
> > good idea deepak,
> > and about yr 15%...you may have to be the first one
> > to list on the
> > site...
> > seriously good idea..we could start with naming them
> > here..on this
> > group.
> > sudhir
> >
> > --- In designindia@..., "deepak
> > pathania"
> > <dpathania@h...> wrote:
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>             
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Make Yahoo! your home page
> http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://in.groups.yahoo.com/group/designindia/
>   
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> designindia-unsubscribe@...
>   
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

---

Yahoo! Groups Links

• To visit your group on the web, go to:
• http://in.groups.yahoo.com/group/designindia/
• To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
• designindia-unsubscribe@... <mailto:designindia-unsubscribe@...?subject=Unsubscribe>
• Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service <http://in.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
  

---

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Get Office Mail free at www.burrotech.com.

  L  O  P  E  Z     D  E  S  I  G  N       

Hi! Everybody

I professionally think the idea of arbitrarily blacklisting clients is not a good one.

Let us all remember that we all belong to a common business environment and the relationship should be mutual.

We are assuming that we are right about our individual judgement that the client has not paid us for the wrong reasons. And therefore paint him black. I would like to believe it true for most cases. Let us remind ourselves that, although this forum is an informal one it is gaining power with every additional member. Due deligence and deliberation is required on how we conduct ourselves to create a healthy professional environment for all.

I am of total agreement that this forum needs to discuss such issues and more. But if we want to name the client then we should take the trouble to include the client in our  discussion.

Yes, we can also form a formal committee where there is a panel making the final call and then blacklisting clients and designers. Or together we can form a body which has its own lawyers. And post cases we have won.

But what is most significant is to continue discussing how to safeguard our interest and being able to make a legal case of the same. And every case won will add to the strength of our profession and become a platform to fight the next.

Namaste

Anthony Lopez
PEP Visual communication 1990, NID

Lopez design, New Delhi

• To visit your group on the web, go to:
• http://in.groups.yahoo.com/group/designindia/
• To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
• designindia-unsubscribe@... <mailto:designindia-unsubscribe@...?subject=Unsubscribe>
• Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service <http://in.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
  

Message: 4        
   Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 11:41:49 +0530 (IST)
   From: "Pradyumna Vyas" <pradyumna@...>
Subject: Requirement of a Male Fabric Designer

[This message is not in displayable format]

Brownie points: If Reliance Infocom goes to Anil Ambani, I wonder if
it will improve chances for RIL listing on youhaventpaidme.com site
running on Rel Infocomm infrastructure (assuming they provide hosting
services, of course). Maybe the site should be hosted on Tata VSNL
infrastructure since Tata group companies are presumedly ethical in
honouring contracts.
;-)

Sridhar Dhulipala


On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 01:59:27 -0800 (PST), Hemant Suthar
<hsuthar@...> wrote:
> RELIANCE INDUSTRIES LIMITED
>
>
> --- Sudhir Sharma <sudhirelephant@...> wrote:
> >
> > good idea deepak,
> > and about yr 15%...you may have to be the first one
> > to list on the
> > site...
> > seriously good idea..we could start with naming them
> > here..on this
> > group.
> > sudhir
> >
> > --- In designindia@..., "deepak
> > pathania"
> > <dpathania@h...> wrote:
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Make Yahoo! your home page
> http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://in.groups.yahoo.com/group/designindia/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> designindia-unsubscribe@...
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

I reccommend that before you start such a website, you should study the
structure and functioning of Better Business Bureau in U.S. It works very well
and consumers find it immensely powerful.

We need public exposure of defaulters  plus teeth for our effort.  Maybe
learning from study of BBB will help create a similar forum throuh National
Design Council as weel.




-----Original Message-----

From:  "deepak pathania" <dpathania@...>
Subj:  RE: [designindia] further
Date:  Thu Mar 31, 2005 1:21 am
Size:  5K
To:  designindia@...

     hi,
  i had an idea once of starting a website called "theyhaventpaidme.com". the
point of the website was that if you havent been paid by a company, log on to
the site and you may find that the company also hasnt paid many others. so you
connect with people who have been similarily wronged. you connect with them on
the net across nations and all other boundaries as well as in your
neighbourhood.
  then you realise that nos have strength and then together one can make an
impact even by just turning up at the office if not getting together and buying
legal help.
  then companies that are "known for not paying" will be identified
automatically, black listed automatically, as well as can be fought against mu
more easily. and i thought that perhaps the company as well as the people you
dealt with should come on to the forefront, which puts pressure on the "erring"
management as well.
  i think the possible scale is huge and international and not much to do except
setup the site, rest the people do themselves within as given framework. its
just to group people together for strength in nos against the goliaths of today
  if anyone starts it off, give me a 15% stake in it for theidea.
  deepak pathania
  design intervention india pvt ltd




From: "Sudhir Sharma" sudhirelephant@...
Reply-To: designindia@...
To: designindia@...
Subject: [designindia] further
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 16:49:25 -0000


Thank you so much. This response was very good and felt good to
recieve so many mails on my id as well so many calls, really felt
like a community.

A quick response to many issues which came up.

1. As a professinal practice we take 50% advance on first fee quote.
First fee quotes to new clients are non negotiable.

2. We also offer clients the bigger picture to enlarge our scope and
to better clients ROI, this also means we suggest beyond brief with
extra cost to client, but if he takes it and as much he takes- we
charge for it. Havent had much problem with this working, since we
develop good relation with clients and cross discpline projects are
always better returns and lower investment. (this practice is
benchmarked on many world leading design offices)

3. Projects are coded and tracked and we do have the full
documentations from brainstormings to presentation details for
almost all projects.

4. IPRs in graphic design are very fragile issue, and we are used to
them being abused by the best of our clients. Where ever we can we
increase our fee to cover such things.

On this particular case, after having discussed this amny on this
group this is what we are doing. I shall keep you posted on
landmarks.

We discussed the case with our lawyers in bombay. They have
suggested first to validate our claims (inhouse) and then take legal
action. we are compiling, collecting, assimilating all details on
this project..mails, letters, sketches, researches, travels,
invoices, bills, studies etc.

We are advised to talk to press only after a legal notice has been
sent. We are advised against making any contact with anyone at
client side, to ask, intimate anything.

Our Journalist friends on this group were the first ones to contact
and support..i shall revert to them separately. I am also very
pleasently surprised by CII response (thanks Seema).

Samar has mentioned a case which i think he should mention with
names on the group.

Shaw Wallace is not a client to us, and i dont think we need to fear
them for their size. I will be happy if all of us can disscuss names
without prejudice on the group, benefits of being transparent are
many...others get alert, and you better be sure of the claims you
make.

I shall report on what happens, probably it will be a learning in
what to do when this happens.

By the way have you seen the new Royal Challenge bottle? Have a
look, but dont buy it.

Does anyone know who makes the bottle?

regards
sudhir sharma
elephant design




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   Yahoo! Groups Links
   To visit your group on the web, go to:
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  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
designindia-unsubscribe@...
  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

RELIANCE INDUSTRIES LIMITED


--- Sudhir Sharma <sudhirelephant@...> wrote:
>
> good idea deepak,
> and about yr 15%...you may have to be the first one
> to list on the
> site...
> seriously good idea..we could start with naming them
> here..on this
> group.
> sudhir
>
> --- In designindia@..., "deepak
> pathania"
> <dpathania@h...> wrote:
> >
>
>
>
>


           
__________________________________
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Make Yahoo! your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

Yahoo! India Matrimony: Find your life partner online.

----- Original Message -----

From: deepak pathania

To: designindia@...

Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 2:49 PM

Subject: RE: [designindia] further

hi,

i had an idea once of starting a website called "theyhaventpaidme.com". the point of the website was that if you havent been paid by a company, log on to the site and you may find that the company also hasnt paid many others. so you connect with people who have been similarily wronged. you connect with them on the net across nations and all other boundaries as well as in your neighbourhood.

then you realise that nos have strength and then together one can make an impact even by just turning up at the office if not getting together and buying legal help.

then companies that are "known for not paying" will be identified automatically, black listed automatically, as well as can be fought against mu more easily. and i thought that perhaps the company as well as the people you dealt with should come on to the forefront, which puts pressure on the "erring" management as well.

i think the possible scale is huge and international and not much to do except setup the site, rest the people do themselves within as given framework. its just to group people together for strength in nos against the goliaths of today

if anyone starts it off, give me a 15% stake in it for the idea.

deepak pathania

design intervention india pvt ltd

>From: "Sudhir Sharma" <sudhirelephant@...>

>Reply-To: designindia@...

>To: designindia@...

>Subject: [designindia] further

>Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 16:49:25 -0000

>

>

>Thank you so much. This response was very good and felt good to

>recieve so many mails on my id as well so many calls, really felt

>like a community.

>

>A quick response to many issues which came up.

>

>1. As a professinal practice we take 50% advance on first fee quote.

>First fee quotes to new clients are non negotiable.

>

>2. We also offer clients the bigger picture to enlarge our scope and

>to better clients ROI, this also means we suggest beyond brief with

>extra cost to client, but if he takes it and as much he takes- we

>charge for it. Havent had much problem with this working, since we

>develop good relation with clients and cross discpline projects are

>always better returns and lower investment. (this practice is

>benchmarked on many world leading design offices)

>

>3. Projects are coded and tracked and we do have the full

>documentations from brainstormings to presentation details for

>almost all projects.

>

>4. IPRs in graphic design are very fragile issue, and we are used to

>them being abused by the best of our clients. Where ever we can we

>increase our fee to cover such things.

>

>On this particular case, after having discussed this amny on this

>group this is what we are doing. I shall keep you posted on

>landmarks.

>

>We discussed the case with our lawyers in bombay. They have

>suggested first to validate our claims (inhouse) and then take legal

>action. we are compiling, collecting, assimilating all details on

>this project..mails, letters, sketches, researches, travels,

>invoices, bills, studies etc.

>

>We are advised to talk to press only after a legal notice has been

>sent. We are advised against making any contact with anyone at

>client side, to ask, intimate anything.

>

>Our Journalist friends on this group were the first ones to contact

>and support..i shall revert to them separately. I am also very

>pleasently surprised by CII response (thanks Seema).

>

>Samar has mentioned a case which i think he should mention with

>names on the group.

>

>Shaw Wallace is not a client to us, and i dont think we need to fear

>them for their size. I will be happy if all of us can disscuss names

>without prejudice on the group, benefits of being transparent are

>many...others get alert, and you better be sure of the claims you

>make.

>

>I shall report on what happens, probably it will be a learning in

>what to do when this happens.

>

>By the way have you seen the new Royal Challenge bottle? Have a

>look, but dont buy it.

>

>Does anyone know who makes the bottle?

>

>regards

>sudhir sharma

>elephant design

>

>

>

---

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--- Sudhir Sharma <sudhirelephant@...> wrote:
>
> good idea deepak,
> and about yr 15%...you may have to be the first one
> to list on the
> site...
> seriously good idea..we could start with naming them
> here..on this
> group.
> sudhir
>
> --- In designindia@..., "deepak
> pathania"
> <dpathania@h...> wrote:
> >
>
>
>
>



__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Make Yahoo! your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

good idea deepak,
and about yr 15%...you may have to be the first one to list on the
site...
seriously good idea..we could start with naming them here..on this
group.
sudhir

--- In designindia@..., "deepak pathania"
<dpathania@h...> wrote:
>

Please check out a book titled  "Global Brain" by Howard Bloom. For those of you
who want to go deeper into his ideas, I would also recommend "Lucifer Principle"
by the same  author.




-----Original Message-----

From:  "Sudhir Sharma" <sudhirelephant@...>
Subj:  [designindia] further
Date:  Wed Mar 30, 2005 11:49 am
Size:  3K
To:  designindia@...


  Thank you so much. This response was very good and felt good to
  recieve so many mails on my id as well so many calls, really felt
  like a community.

  A quick response to many issues which came up.

  1. As a professinal practice we take 50% advance on first fee quote.
  First fee quotes to new clients are non negotiable.

  2. We also offer clients the bigger picture to enlarge our scope and
  to better clients ROI, this also means we suggest beyond brief with
  extra cost to client, but if he takes it and as much he takes- we
  charge for it. Havent had much problem with this working, since we
  develop good relation with clients and cross discpline projects are
  always better returns and lower investment. (this practice is
  benchmarked on many world leading design offices)

  3. Projects are coded and tracked and we do have the full
  documentations from brainstormings to presentation details for
  almost all projects.

  4. IPRs in graphic design are very fragile issue, and we are used to
  them being abused by the best of our clients. Where ever we can we
  increase our fee to cover such things.

  On this particular case, after having discussed this amny on this
  group this is what we are doing. I shall keep you posted on
  landmarks.

  We discussed the case with our lawyers in bombay. They have
  suggested first to validate our claims (inhouse) and then take legal
  action. we are compiling, collecting, assimilating all details on
  this project..mails, letters, sketches, researches, travels,
  invoices, bills, studies etc.

  We are advised to talk to press only after a legal notice has been
  sent. We are advised against making any contact with anyone at
  client side, to ask, intimate anything.

  Our Journalist friends on this group were the first ones to contact
  and support..i shall revert to them separately. I am also very
  pleasently surprised by CII response (thanks Seema).

  Samar has mentioned a case which i think he should mention with
  names on the group.

  Shaw Wallace is not a client to us, and i dont think we need to fear
  them for their size. I will be happy if all of us can disscuss names
  without prejudice on the group, benefits of being transparent are
  many...others get alert, and you better be sure of the claims you
  make.

  I shall report on what happens, probably it will be a learning in
  what to do when this happens.

  By the way have you seen the new Royal Challenge bottle? Have a
  look, but dont buy it.

  Does anyone know who makes the bottle?

  regards
  sudhir sharma
  elephant design










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Thank you so much. This response was very good and felt good to
recieve so many mails on my id as well so many calls, really felt
like a community.

A quick response to many issues which came up.

1. As a professinal practice we take 50% advance on first fee quote.
First fee quotes to new clients are non negotiable.

2. We also offer clients the bigger picture to enlarge our scope and
to better clients ROI, this also means we suggest beyond brief with
extra cost to client, but if he takes it and as much he takes- we
charge for it. Havent had much problem with this working, since we
develop good relation with clients and cross discpline projects are
always better returns and lower investment. (this practice is
benchmarked on many world leading design offices)

3. Projects are coded and tracked and we do have the full
documentations from brainstormings to presentation details for
almost all projects.

4. IPRs in graphic design are very fragile issue, and we are used to
them being abused by the best of our clients. Where ever we can we
increase our fee to cover such things.

On this particular case, after having discussed this amny on this
group this is what we are doing. I shall keep you posted on
landmarks.

We discussed the case with our lawyers in bombay. They have
suggested first to validate our claims (inhouse) and then take legal
action. we are compiling, collecting, assimilating all details on
this project..mails, letters, sketches, researches, travels,
invoices, bills, studies etc.

We are advised to talk to press only after a legal notice has been
sent. We are advised against making any contact with anyone at
client side, to ask, intimate anything.

Our Journalist friends on this group were the first ones to contact
and support..i shall revert to them separately. I am also very
pleasently surprised by CII response (thanks Seema).

Samar has mentioned a case which i think he should mention with
names on the group.

Shaw Wallace is not a client to us, and i dont think we need to fear
them for their size. I will be happy if all of us can disscuss names
without prejudice on the group, benefits of being transparent are
many...others get alert, and you better be sure of the claims you
make.

I shall report on what happens, probably it will be a learning in
what to do when this happens.

By the way have you seen the new Royal Challenge bottle? Have a
look, but dont buy it.

Does anyone know who makes the bottle?

regards
sudhir sharma
elephant design

Hi all :

Being a textile designer, my thoughts may or may not
suit  for your situation. Here is what I wouold go
through to tackle such kind of situation.

even if you don't have patent , it would create an
embarrassment for the company if you try to approach
legal + media way.

with the following evidences,

a. invitation from your original client to make design
presentation,

b. any physical  communication( e-mail, faxes)  after
the presentation.

c. concept drawings, sketch books etc.,

I would agree with one of the member suggestion to
write to the new client who adopted the design with
copies to the president of your original client.

If it is appropriate, I would also seek the help of
business magazines to write about the incident as an
article without mentioning the company name, but
suggesting the company name.

I have seen in new york television stations, some
times free lance designers would approach the TV
channels to intervene if they felt like they have been
cheated by clients.

hope this was appropriate.

regards
Srini


Srinivasan Jayapal

1501.Little Gloucester Road #L.6

Blackwood.NJ08012.USA

+1 856 227 2411 +1609 442 5275

Rajesh's point on rendering date is an excellent one. Related, I
believe reputed research houses including Bell labs in US follow a
system/practice of maintaining a lab journal. The researchers sign in,
record time and do the same at exit, including recording remarks on
what was observed, researched, research results, etc. These journals
have been used to resolve patent disputes as to who came up with the
idea first and so on.
One good practice for designers is perhaps maintaining some log or
following a standard practice. The time stamp of the rendering of the
bottle is a good example of who came up with idea in the first place.
Ove Arup Associates, a very successful architectural practice based in
UK is known for its knowledge management practice. So does IDEO (read
the book 'Art of Innovation'). These systems not only help improve
efficiencies of design teams by reducing time to arrive at a solution
but also serve as a historical record for the ideas...which can help
to resolve disputes reasonably.

Regards
Sridhar Dhulipala
NID, PD 1993
Infosys Technologies Ltd
Bangalore


On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 00:33:11 -0500, rajesh kutty <rnkutty@...> wrote:
> Hi Sudhir,
>
> I am sure a lot of us have faced similar instances before like you rightly
> mentioned. And these things should not go unpunished. Although you would
> know better, as to what next...do you reckon if you got your rendering dates
> in place, it shouldn't be a problem going to court, and getting your dues?
> But surely you got to take action.
>
> I had a similar case with me just recently. I came back to India after doing
> a course in car design. When I went back and met my client (TAFE,
> Chennai)with whom I was working before leaving for England I realised that
> one of the engineers who was working in my design team had quit the company
> and started another company (in his wife's name) called Green field
> tractors, and developed my tractor in 11 months (might have started work
> when he was in TAFE itself) got it certified with the Govt. at Budni, MP
> (where the tractors are tested) and even got it registered (my tractor was
> not registered, as it was shelved)...the chap is now behind bars by the
> crime branch...a matter of a month!
>
> Although different from your case, its a shame really that with that talent
> this engineer is behind bars, but maybe that's the price he paid.
>
> Cheers!
> Rajesh Kutty
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sudhir Sharma" <sudhirelephant@...>
> To: designindia@...
> Subject: [designindia] what do u say
> Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 16:39:33 -0000
>
> >
> >
> > i am posting a professional case, happened very recently.
> > Would like to invite your opinions/ comments/ suggestions / way
> > ahead or what ever...i am sure many have faced similar situations.
> >
> > Its posted here in goodfaith, am not sure if anyone from this group
> > is party to this.
> >
> > We are in practice for last 14 years, and have been judging clients
> > on intuition on how far the client would take our suggestions. Thus
> > like any good design office, we dont limit our solutions to the
> > brief only.
> >
> > The client - Shaw Wallace- from bombay called one day, for the first
> > time to brief us on new labels they wanted for a few brands. we made
> > our credentials presentation, heard their brief and suggested that
> > its not just the label  but the bottle which needs relooking.
> >
> > we suggested to come back with a few concept renderings and see if
> > they liked the idea. Our PD worked on something like 20 concepts in
> > a short time, we compiled a ppt and presented to senior management.
> > The bottles were presented in 3d rendered and plan elevation drgs.
> > label graphics and a whole strategy to go with it.
> >
> > client was visibily impressed, called in ceo and we had the show
> > again, we were asked to leave a few slides behind.
> >
> > we came back and quoted to the client- to move things ahead. Client
> > got back saying sorry they anyway didnt want to change the bottle
> > and for labels they had a contarct with ad agency already (they just
> > realised).
> >
> > we left it it to that, it happens and anyway it was good experience
> > for our guys to work on glass....
> >
> > we recently discovered the new Royal Challenge whiskey
> > bottle, is one of our concepts....
> >
> > and now the company has been sold to UB...
> >
> > well we have a few choices...what do u suggest.
> >
> > sudhir
> > elephant design
> > india
>
> --
> _______________________________________________
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> ________________________________
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
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> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

Hi Sudhir,

I am sure a lot of us have faced similar instances before like you rightly
mentioned. And these things should not go unpunished. Although you would know
better, as to what next...do you reckon if you got your rendering dates in
place, it shouldn't be a problem going to court, and getting your dues? But
surely you got to take action.

I had a similar case with me just recently. I came back to India after doing a
course in car design. When I went back and met my client (TAFE, Chennai)with
whom I was working before leaving for England I realised that one of the
engineers who was working in my design team had quit the company and started
another company (in his wife's name) called Green field tractors, and developed
my tractor in 11 months (might have started work when he was in TAFE itself) got
it certified with the Govt. at Budni, MP (where the tractors are tested) and
even got it registered (my tractor was not registered, as it was shelved)...the
chap is now behind bars by the crime branch...a matter of a month!

Although different from your case, its a shame really that with that talent this
engineer is behind bars, but maybe that's the price he paid.

Cheers!
Rajesh Kutty

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sudhir Sharma" <sudhirelephant@...>
To: designindia@...
Subject: [designindia] what do u say
Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 16:39:33 -0000

>
>
> i am posting a professional case, happened very recently.
> Would like to invite your opinions/ comments/ suggestions / way
> ahead or what ever...i am sure many have faced similar situations.
>
> Its posted here in goodfaith, am not sure if anyone from this group
> is party to this.
>
> We are in practice for last 14 years, and have been judging clients
> on intuition on how far the client would take our suggestions. Thus
> like any good design office, we dont limit our solutions to the
> brief only.
>
> The client - Shaw Wallace- from bombay called one day, for the first
> time to brief us on new labels they wanted for a few brands. we made
> our credentials presentation, heard their brief and suggested that
> its not just the label  but the bottle which needs relooking.
>
> we suggested to come back with a few concept renderings and see if
> they liked the idea. Our PD worked on something like 20 concepts in
> a short time, we compiled a ppt and presented to senior management.
> The bottles were presented in 3d rendered and plan elevation drgs.
> label graphics and a whole strategy to go with it.
>
> client was visibily impressed, called in ceo and we had the show
> again, we were asked to leave a few slides behind.
>
> we came back and quoted to the client- to move things ahead. Client
> got back saying sorry they anyway didnt want to change the bottle
> and for labels they had a contarct with ad agency already (they just
> realised).
>
> we left it it to that, it happens and anyway it was good experience
> for our guys to work on glass....
>
> we recently discovered the new Royal Challenge whiskey
> bottle, is one of our concepts....
>
> and now the company has been sold to UB...
>
> well we have a few choices...what do u suggest.
>
> sudhir
> elephant design
> india

--
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well, you've taken the first step already. you made a post. if this
and other such cases get talked about in many places, at some point it
would be a deterrent for such incidents.

you would also like to add a clause in such a presentation that
'copyrights for all the works shown belong to you and therefore may
not be reproduced in any form, media etc.'. (maybe the first slide ?)

the term copyright is very important as it is the only ipr that you
have automatically by virtue of having created something special -
without having to go through a legal process.

warm regards.

dinesh korjan
nid pd 76-83
studio korjan ahmedabad

--- In designindia@..., "Sudhir Sharma"
<sudhirelephant@y...> wrote:
>
> i am posting a professional case, happened very recently.