A few points:

- NID should clarify its stand to all would-be clients/employers
   who seek to use its placement services. Perhaps a simple
   one liner would suffice - "We will only consider equal
   opportunities employee/consultant placement requests."

- I imagine the Goverment of India already has rules in place
   discriminatory job solicitation. NID would automatically
   be subject to the same rules.

- We should be directly asking the source of the offending ad
   for the rationale they had behind an apparently discriminatory
   requirement. That seems to be the most significant missing piece
   in the whole discussion here.

- There are still some jobs in India that prescribe gender
   exclusion. True, women are flying transports and helicopters in
   support roles with the IAF, but there is no induction of female
   combat pilots yet (as far as I know, Israel is the only major
   military power that inducts women combat pilots).

One would require much more information on the following before
voicing any opinion either way:

1. The client rationale
2. Government rules and exceptions.

-Jayant S-

Dear Pradyumna
No offence meant! I just thought that instead of cutting and pasting the
job description, a "Forward" would have done the needful:

There is a difference, when I receive a mail that says
"Male Designer's Required"

and one that says:

:"Fw:Male Designers Required"

I do not have the original mail, but seem to recall, hopefully not
incorrectly, the missing "Fw:"

Such are the niceties of the virtual forum!

Perhaps with your 8 days a week work-schedule, you inadvertently keyed in
what Mr Lakshman had said.

It is likely however that the exchange contibutes to an awareness of
political correctness, that will also reflect in the manner of
personal exchanges.

Regards
Raja Mohanty
VC, 1990

P.S. Dear Prof. Nadkarni, Good suggestion but fortunately I do not have a
television!








>
>
>
>
> Dear Arvind Lodaya / Srinivasan Jayapal / Raja Mohanty / Deepa and all
> friends at designindia,   I’d like to thank everyone at the designindia
> forum for bringing up this issue regarding the requirement of a “Male
> Fabric Designer”.    NID gets many enquiries for design assistance from
> various companies. My stance regarding such enquiries has always been
> clear. When NID can benefit in terms of diploma projects for students or
> consultancy projects for IDS, we take it up, otherwise we forward human
> resource enquiries from clients (as in the case of Mr. Lakshman’s) to
> forums like designindia as it is ……so that maximum number of designers
> /graduates can benefit and come to know of such opportunities   We forward
> client enquiries as!
>   it is, all in good faith, that both parties will have the ability to
> judge each other’s capabilities.   Views expressed in this forum can be
> communicated to Mr. Lakshman of M/s. Tessitura Monti India P Ltd
> directly….I re-attach his enquiry for the convenience of any one logging
> on now and wants to join this debate. However if all of you feel
> necessary, I will communicate your concerns to him on your behalf.   Best
> wishes   Pradyumna Vyas   Attached : Mail received from Mr. Lakshman<
> /B>    From  "pradeepa" >tessituramonti@touchtelind!
>  ia.net<  Subject  Male Fabric Designer  Date  Tue, March 29, 2005 3:37 pm
>  To  pradyumna@...
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>   Dear Mr. Pradyumna Vyas,   It was indeed nice talking to you on the
> phone and our requirement is as follows:   We are looking for a Male
> Fabric Designer with minimum 5 years experience from the Textile Industry
> with a good educational background, Knowledge of Te!
>  xtile Engineering and Hands on Fabric Designing.  He will have to travel
> extensively within the country, understanding and generating the designs
> on behalf of Customers and also he will spend atleast 3 - 4 months in
> Italy for drawing inspirations, trends etc.,  He will be based at Chennai
> in the Marketing Office reporting to Chief of Marketing and with respect
> to remuneration, we will be second to none.   We would seek your help to
> suggest some good people for the above on a war footing matter and they
> could be asked to directly contact me.   Thanking you very much for the
> help.   My contact nos are 098840-31861 & 093823-36121.   Regards,
> C.S. Lakshman Chief Marketing Officer   M/s. Tessitura Monti India P Ltd
> No. 25 & 26, College Road Unit 202, Prince Towers Nungambakkam,
> Chennai - 600 006 Ph: +91-44-52143995 Fax: +91-44-52143996 Email:
> tessituramonti@...           tessituramonti@...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go
> to:http://in.groups.yahoo.com/group/designindia/
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email
> to:designindia-unsubscribe@...
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Dear Pradyumna,

While echoing Ramu's sentiments, I just want to add a
point:

Good faith and the behavior of other well respected
educational institutions aside, NID on its own needs
to set some firm standards for the industry and not
merely accept any such postings that come their way.
Mr. Lakshman's ad is clearly detrimental to the scores
of women graduates of NID's TD faculty and casts
aspersions on their abilities. Were our faculty
members like Ms. Aditi Ranjan aware of this posting?
Even someone of her calibre would be disqualified by
that ad merely by gender- surely it is something to
ponder.

If there has not been a discussion among NID's senior
faculty, staff and Dr. Koshy about this topic before,
I do think it is an appropriate time and place to
bring it up. We are after all well into the 21st
century and hardly want to leave 50% of our population
behind.

Regards,
Deepa

Deepa Rathnam Nirmal
CD, NID, 1989-95
SVP- Creative Services, Visum,
St. Paul, MN, USA


--- Ramu Dhara <dharar@...> wrote:
> Thank you Mr Vyas for sharing that information.  We
> certainly will engage this gentleman to express our
> views "democratically." There are many of us within
> India and outside who do view design and its
> practise in a context and not in a social vaccum.
>
> Off course that brings into mind an interesting
> distinction on how we, the community, you and
> institutions such as NID) view themselves, as
> facilitators or as entities capable of framing and
> leading progressive policy within practise.  For
> example, I am allied with an educational institution
> (Parsons School of Design is part of my institution)
> whose HR dept have policies that do not encourage
> employers to discriminate.
>
> That posting would be unacceptable here for sure as
> I suspect in several leading and progressive
> institutions within India (I could name a few).  It
> might be impertinent for me to ask what are the
> benchmarks for framing HR policy at NID as I am not
> there, but I would be curious if the IIMA would
> consider such a posting.
>
> We can take this discussion offline and one on one
> from here on off course.
>
> sincerely
> Ramu Dhara
>

Press Enter to Exit. --Computer 'help' message




__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/

Thank you Mr Vyas for sharing that information.  We certainly will engage this
gentleman to express our views "democratically." There are many of us within
India and outside who do view design and its practise in a context and not in a
social vaccum.

Off course that brings into mind an interesting distinction on how we, the
community, you and institutions such as NID) view themselves, as facilitators or
as entities capable of framing and leading progressive policy within practise. 
For example, I am allied with an educational institution (Parsons School of
Design is part of my institution) whose HR dept have policies that do not
encourage employers to discriminate.

That posting would be unacceptable here for sure as I suspect in several leading
and progressive institutions within India (I could name a few).  It might be
impertinent for me to ask what are the benchmarks for framing HR policy at NID
as I am not there, but I would be curious if the IIMA would consider such a
posting.

We can take this discussion offline and one on one from here on off course.

sincerely
Ramu Dhara

Well, I thought I would stay out of this one, but it is the end of today's
play, and I have some time left over, so here goes...

dear vyas-ji must be chewing his nails in deep regret, or else like a good
mcp having a good laugh, tell us please!

and for our progressive brethren and mrethren in the western hemisphere
thankyou for keeping us backward desis in check, thankyou.

we are perhaps headed through dialogue, to an age where
polarities, merge into a more energized whole,

but to see that one needs to
tune-out, soft-focus, and on that note
good night
eat with all your might sleep tight.

mail end protocol
RM
VC
1990







>
> funny!
> And I may concur with Deepa...there is this great desire for
> "globalization" (sic..whatever that means. Noam Chomsky has a lot of views
> on that) and integration in India.  I'm unclear as to what this definition
> of "idealistic" is?  But it does sound like something from a 100 years
> ago.  The world is changing..work habits and environments are changing and
> perhaps we need to get with the times in 2005 don't you think?
>
> That choice of language almost suggests you want to be left behind
>
> Perhaps you need to rethink what "practical" is?  There are "female"
> copter pilots in the Indian armed forces just in case you need a point of
> reference!
> Ramu Dhara
>>>> deeparnirmal@... 04/01/05 1:32 PM >>>
>
> Rit, your explanation and attempted justification is
> only making the whole controversy worse, IMO.
>
> So, rather than improving conditions, we just accept
> that women should not work at night, and start
> formalizing this discrimination? This is just boggling
> my mind.
>
> What next, shall we bar women from the police, since,
> gee whiz, they may come in contact with criminals in
> that situation?
>
> By further extension of this logic, let's also bar
> women from NID, IDC, NIFT etc.- women don't make good
> designers anyway. And let's see, what else can we do
> to roll society back a few hundred years?
>
> Furiously,
> Deepa
>
>
>
>
>
> --- Rit <rit4you@...> wrote:
>
>>
>> Dear Female/Male designers,
>> LAST WEEK NEWS:
>>
>> Textile units cheer move to allow women work late
>> night
>>  G. Gurumurthy
>>  Coimbatore , March 31
>>
>>  THE Central Government's decision to amend the
>> Factories Act to allow women to work in night shift
>> between 10 p.m. and 5 a.m. has cheered the textile
>> sector, which have been calling for labour reforms
>> in
>> the face of what they call a shortfall in
>> competitive
>> labour to tackle global trade.
>> -----------------------------------
>> THIS WEEK NEWS:
>> Reverse decision on night shift for women workers:
>>
>> New Delhi, Mar 31 (UNI) Strongly opposing the Union
>> cabinet's decision to allow night shifts for women
>> workers, the pro-CPI(M) Centre of Indian Trade
>> Unions
>> (CITU) today urged the government to reverse the
>> decision saying working conditions throughout the
>> country doesn't call for such a move.
>>
>> "This unilateral decision, just two days prior to
>> the
>> meeting of the Labour Minister with the central
>> trade
>> unions, is only to placate the employers,
>> particularly
>> in the SEZ/EPZ and garment sector," Mr Sen said.
>>
>> "The present environment in work places throughout
>> the
>> country is not conducive to venture on such a
>> precipitative move," he said urging the government
>> to
>> reverse the decision.
>>
> _________________________________________________________________
>>
>> So, I believe the requirement could be of a male
>> designer.
>> We should not encourage such discrimination but I
>> believe its is not practical to be so idealistic in
>> present environment in India.
>>
>> To cut it short. They might be looking for a MALE
>> designer who can work day and night for them. J
>>
>> Regards
>> Rit
>>
>>
>>
>> --- Deepa Rathnam Nirmal <deeparnirmal@...>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > I have to add I too was shocked to see the
>> > stipulation
>> > for a male- what possible relevance a person's sex
>> > would have for the job is beyond me. Are they
>> > expecting the person to work in some hazardous
>> > situation where a 'delicate' female would not
>> > survive?
>> > Or is there some serious heavy lifting involved?
>> >
>> > Here in the US, there would be a line of gleeful
>> > lawyers outside the door of the organization
>> before
>> > you could utter the word 'lawsuit'. Somebody needs
>> > to
>> > inform these people that such double standards, if
>> > not
>> > pass*, definitely deserve to be.
>> >
>> > Deepa
>> >
>> > Deepa Rathnam Nirmal
>> > CD, NID, 1989-95
>> > SVP, Creative Services, Visum
>> > St. Paul, MN, USA
>> >
>> > --- Prachi <imprachi@...> wrote:
>> > > As Asok pointed out, being a 'female' textile
>> > > designer
>> > > suddenly sounds like an issue. I'm surprised
>> that
>> > > such a
>> > > bias still exists amongst us so-called
>> > > aducated/urban
>> > > societies. And ironically that too in a design
>> > area
>> > > with
>> > > the highest women to men ratio.
>> > >
>> > > Prachi Mishra
>> > > NID,TD
>> > > 2004
>> > > freelancer
>> > > New Delhi
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > --- Asok George <asokaag@...> wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > Asok Abraham George
>> > > > Design Lead
>> > > > Volvo Truck Corporation
>> > > > Gothenburg Sweden
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > Perhaps I've been living in Sweden for too
>> > > > long...........
>> > > >
>> > > > But posting for a job specifing gender would
>> > never
>> > > be
>> > > > accepted here. Its
>> > > > like saying "only whites need apply".
>> > > >
>> > > > I think such attitudes should not encouraged
>> by
>> > > the
>> > > > design community in
>> > > > India.
>> > > >
>> > > > ASOK
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > >From: "Arvind Lodaya"
>> <emailarvind@...>
>> > > > >Reply-To: designindia@...
>> > > > >To: <designindia@...>
>> > > > >Subject: [designindia] "male fabric"
>> > designer!!1
>> > > > >Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 08:31:24 +0530
>> > > > >
>> > > > >This is how Pradyumna's post showed up in my
>> > > mailbox,
>> > > > and I think it is
>> > > > >deliciously ironic!
>> > > > >BTW: What exactly is a "male fabric" and how
>> > does
>> > > it
>> > > > differ from a "female
>> > > > >fabric"?
>> > > > >   Message: 4
>> > > > >      Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 11:41:49 +0530
>> > (IST)
>> > > > >      From: "Pradyumna Vyas"
>> > <pradyumna@...>
>> > > > >   Subject: Requirement of a Male Fabric
>> > Designer
>> > > > >
>> > > > >   [This message is not in displayable
>> format]
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > >
>> >
>>
> _________________________________________________________________
>> > > > FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar
>> -
>> > > get it
>> > > > now!
>> > > >
>> > >
>> >
>>
> http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > > Send instant messages to your online friends
>> > > http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
>> > >
>> >
>> > Press Enter to Exit. --Computer 'help' message
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > __________________________________
>> > Do you Yahoo!?
>> > Yahoo! Personals - Better first dates. More second
>> > dates.
>> > http://personals.yahoo.com
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>> >
>>
> === message truncated ===
>
>
> Press Enter to Exit. --Computer 'help' message
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Yahoo! Messenger
> Show us what our next emoticon should look like. Join the fun.
> http://www.advision.webevents.yahoo.com/emoticontest
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
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>
>
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>
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>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
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>
>
>

Hi,
    Myself Aakash Kumar, Student Designer, Design Programme,
IITKanpur. I'm in final Yr  and about to graduate in May-June 2005.
    I am thrilled being the member of designindia grp and looking
forward to have a lot of interaction with other members.

Regards

Aakash Kumar
PD 2005
IIT Kanpur
http://home.iitk.ac.in/student/aakashk

Dear Arvind Lodaya / Srinivasan Jayapal / Raja Mohanty / Deepa and all friends at designindia,

I’d like to thank everyone at the designindia forum for bringing up this issue regarding the requirement of a “Male Fabric Designer”.

NID gets many enquiries for design assistance from various companies. My stance regarding such enquiries has always been clear. When NID can benefit in terms of diploma projects for students or consultancy projects for IDS, we take it up, otherwise we forward human resource enquiries from clients (as in the case of Mr. Lakshman’s) to forums like designindia as it is ……so that maximum number of designers /graduates can benefit and come to know of such opportunities

We forward client enquiries as! it is, all in good faith, that both parties will have the ability to judge each other’s capabilities.

Views expressed in this forum can be communicated to Mr. Lakshman of M/s. Tessitura Monti India P Ltd directly….I re-attach his enquiry for the convenience of any one logging on now and wants to join this debate. However if all of you feel necessary, I will communicate your concerns to him on your behalf.

Best wishes

Pradyumna Vyas

Attached : Mail received from Mr. Lakshman /B>

Well, I thought I would stay out of this one, but it is the end of today's
play, and I have some time left over, so here goes...

dear vyas-ji must be chewing his nails in deep regret, or else like a good
mcp having a good laugh, tell us please!

and for our progressive brethren and mrethren in the western hemisphere
thankyou for keeping us backward desis in check, thankyou.

we are perhaps headed through dialogue, to an age where
polarities, merge into a more energized whole,

but to see that one needs to
tune-out, soft-focus, and on that note
good night
eat with all your might sleep tight.

mail end protocol
RM
VC
1990







>
> funny!
> And I may concur with Deepa...there is this great desire for
> "globalization" (sic..whatever that means. Noam Chomsky has a lot of views
> on that) and integration in India.  I'm unclear as to what this definition
> of "idealistic" is?  But it does sound like something from a 100 years
> ago.  The world is changing..work habits and environments are changing and
> perhaps we need to get with the times in 2005 don't you think?
>
> That choice of language almost suggests you want to be left behind
>
> Perhaps you need to rethink what "practical" is?  There are "female"
> copter pilots in the Indian armed forces just in case you need a point of
> reference!
> Ramu Dhara
>>>> deeparnirmal@... 04/01/05 1:32 PM >>>
>
> Rit, your explanation and attempted justification is
> only making the whole controversy worse, IMO.
>
> So, rather than improving conditions, we just accept
> that women should not work at night, and start
> formalizing this discrimination? This is just boggling
> my mind.
>
> What next, shall we bar women from the police, since,
> gee whiz, they may come in contact with criminals in
> that situation?
>
> By further extension of this logic, let's also bar
> women from NID, IDC, NIFT etc.- women don't make good
> designers anyway. And let's see, what else can we do
> to roll society back a few hundred years?
>
> Furiously,
> Deepa
>
>
>
>
>
> --- Rit <rit4you@...> wrote:
>
>>
>> Dear Female/Male designers,
>> LAST WEEK NEWS:
>>
>> Textile units cheer move to allow women work late
>> night
>>  G. Gurumurthy
>>  Coimbatore , March 31
>>
>>  THE Central Government's decision to amend the
>> Factories Act to allow women to work in night shift
>> between 10 p.m. and 5 a.m. has cheered the textile
>> sector, which have been calling for labour reforms
>> in
>> the face of what they call a shortfall in
>> competitive
>> labour to tackle global trade.
>> -----------------------------------
>> THIS WEEK NEWS:
>> Reverse decision on night shift for women workers:
>>
>> New Delhi, Mar 31 (UNI) Strongly opposing the Union
>> cabinet's decision to allow night shifts for women
>> workers, the pro-CPI(M) Centre of Indian Trade
>> Unions
>> (CITU) today urged the government to reverse the
>> decision saying working conditions throughout the
>> country doesn't call for such a move.
>>
>> "This unilateral decision, just two days prior to
>> the
>> meeting of the Labour Minister with the central
>> trade
>> unions, is only to placate the employers,
>> particularly
>> in the SEZ/EPZ and garment sector," Mr Sen said.
>>
>> "The present environment in work places throughout
>> the
>> country is not conducive to venture on such a
>> precipitative move," he said urging the government
>> to
>> reverse the decision.
>>
> _________________________________________________________________
>>
>> So, I believe the requirement could be of a male
>> designer.
>> We should not encourage such discrimination but I
>> believe its is not practical to be so idealistic in
>> present environment in India.
>>
>> To cut it short. They might be looking for a MALE
>> designer who can work day and night for them. J
>>
>> Regards
>> Rit
>>
>>
>>
>> --- Deepa Rathnam Nirmal <deeparnirmal@...>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > I have to add I too was shocked to see the
>> > stipulation
>> > for a male- what possible relevance a person's sex
>> > would have for the job is beyond me. Are they
>> > expecting the person to work in some hazardous
>> > situation where a 'delicate' female would not
>> > survive?
>> > Or is there some serious heavy lifting involved?
>> >
>> > Here in the US, there would be a line of gleeful
>> > lawyers outside the door of the organization
>> before
>> > you could utter the word 'lawsuit'. Somebody needs
>> > to
>> > inform these people that such double standards, if
>> > not
>> > pass*, definitely deserve to be.
>> >
>> > Deepa
>> >
>> > Deepa Rathnam Nirmal
>> > CD, NID, 1989-95
>> > SVP, Creative Services, Visum
>> > St. Paul, MN, USA
>> >
>> > --- Prachi <imprachi@...> wrote:
>> > > As Asok pointed out, being a 'female' textile
>> > > designer
>> > > suddenly sounds like an issue. I'm surprised
>> that
>> > > such a
>> > > bias still exists amongst us so-called
>> > > aducated/urban
>> > > societies. And ironically that too in a design
>> > area
>> > > with
>> > > the highest women to men ratio.
>> > >
>> > > Prachi Mishra
>> > > NID,TD
>> > > 2004
>> > > freelancer
>> > > New Delhi
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > --- Asok George <asokaag@...> wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > Asok Abraham George
>> > > > Design Lead
>> > > > Volvo Truck Corporation
>> > > > Gothenburg Sweden
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > Perhaps I've been living in Sweden for too
>> > > > long...........
>> > > >
>> > > > But posting for a job specifing gender would
>> > never
>> > > be
>> > > > accepted here. Its
>> > > > like saying "only whites need apply".
>> > > >
>> > > > I think such attitudes should not encouraged
>> by
>> > > the
>> > > > design community in
>> > > > India.
>> > > >
>> > > > ASOK
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > >From: "Arvind Lodaya"
>> <emailarvind@...>
>> > > > >Reply-To: designindia@...
>> > > > >To: <designindia@...>
>> > > > >Subject: [designindia] "male fabric"
>> > designer!!1
>> > > > >Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 08:31:24 +0530
>> > > > >
>> > > > >This is how Pradyumna's post showed up in my
>> > > mailbox,
>> > > > and I think it is
>> > > > >deliciously ironic!
>> > > > >BTW: What exactly is a "male fabric" and how
>> > does
>> > > it
>> > > > differ from a "female
>> > > > >fabric"?
>> > > > >   Message: 4
>> > > > >      Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 11:41:49 +0530
>> > (IST)
>> > > > >      From: "Pradyumna Vyas"
>> > <pradyumna@...>
>> > > > >   Subject: Requirement of a Male Fabric
>> > Designer
>> > > > >
>> > > > >   [This message is not in displayable
>> format]
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > >
>> >
>>
> _________________________________________________________________
>> > > > FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar
>> -
>> > > get it
>> > > > now!
>> > > >
>> > >
>> >
>>
> http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > > Send instant messages to your online friends
>> > > http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
>> > >
>> >
>> > Press Enter to Exit. --Computer 'help' message
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > __________________________________
>> > Do you Yahoo!?
>> > Yahoo! Personals - Better first dates. More second
>> > dates.
>> > http://personals.yahoo.com
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>> >
>>
> === message truncated ===
>
>
> Press Enter to Exit. --Computer 'help' message
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Yahoo! Messenger
> Show us what our next emoticon should look like. Join the fun.
> http://www.advision.webevents.yahoo.com/emoticontest
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Just contributing food for thought

Recently on National Public Radio (from the blessed land of "liberty"-sarcasm
intended) --I heard this long report on Mumbai's aspirations to become a
Shanghai a la china

The main story was about slum demolition in Bombay!

I couldn't help wonder when i saw this project (link below) about how we have or
not extended some of that tremendous energy that I see around the discussion on
this list to projects similar (not the same) that have addressed such
situations.  Years ago, I recall a report done by MN Buch and Charles Correa
revisting a new urban typology for Bombay.  Off course that was years ago. 
Arvind L. might have some thoughts on this for sure!

http://www.loftcube.net

funny!
And I may concur with Deepa...there is this great desire for "globalization"
(sic..whatever that means. Noam Chomsky has a lot of views on that) and
integration in India.  I'm unclear as to what this definition of "idealistic"
is?  But it does sound like something from a 100 years ago.  The world is
changing..work habits and environments are changing and perhaps we need to get
with the times in 2005 don't you think?

That choice of language almost suggests you want to be left behind

Perhaps you need to rethink what "practical" is?  There are "female" copter
pilots in the Indian armed forces just in case you need a point of reference!
Ramu Dhara
>>> deeparnirmal@... 04/01/05 1:32 PM >>>

Rit, your explanation and attempted justification is
only making the whole controversy worse, IMO.

So, rather than improving conditions, we just accept
that women should not work at night, and start
formalizing this discrimination? This is just boggling
my mind.

What next, shall we bar women from the police, since,
gee whiz, they may come in contact with criminals in
that situation?

By further extension of this logic, let's also bar
women from NID, IDC, NIFT etc.- women don't make good
designers anyway. And let's see, what else can we do
to roll society back a few hundred years?

Furiously,
Deepa





--- Rit <rit4you@...> wrote:

>
> Dear Female/Male designers,
> LAST WEEK NEWS:
>
> Textile units cheer move to allow women work late
> night
>  G. Gurumurthy
>  Coimbatore , March 31
>
>  THE Central Government's decision to amend the
> Factories Act to allow women to work in night shift
> between 10 p.m. and 5 a.m. has cheered the textile
> sector, which have been calling for labour reforms
> in
> the face of what they call a shortfall in
> competitive
> labour to tackle global trade.
> -----------------------------------
> THIS WEEK NEWS:
> Reverse decision on night shift for women workers:
>
> New Delhi, Mar 31 (UNI) Strongly opposing the Union
> cabinet's decision to allow night shifts for women
> workers, the pro-CPI(M) Centre of Indian Trade
> Unions
> (CITU) today urged the government to reverse the
> decision saying working conditions throughout the
> country doesn't call for such a move.
>
> "This unilateral decision, just two days prior to
> the
> meeting of the Labour Minister with the central
> trade
> unions, is only to placate the employers,
> particularly
> in the SEZ/EPZ and garment sector," Mr Sen said.
>
> "The present environment in work places throughout
> the
> country is not conducive to venture on such a
> precipitative move," he said urging the government
> to
> reverse the decision.
>
_________________________________________________________________
>
> So, I believe the requirement could be of a male
> designer.
> We should not encourage such discrimination but I
> believe its is not practical to be so idealistic in
> present environment in India.
>
> To cut it short. They might be looking for a MALE
> designer who can work day and night for them. J
>
> Regards
> Rit
>
>
>
> --- Deepa Rathnam Nirmal <deeparnirmal@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > I have to add I too was shocked to see the
> > stipulation
> > for a male- what possible relevance a person's sex
> > would have for the job is beyond me. Are they
> > expecting the person to work in some hazardous
> > situation where a 'delicate' female would not
> > survive?
> > Or is there some serious heavy lifting involved?
> >
> > Here in the US, there would be a line of gleeful
> > lawyers outside the door of the organization
> before
> > you could utter the word 'lawsuit'. Somebody needs
> > to
> > inform these people that such double standards, if
> > not
> > pass*, definitely deserve to be.
> >
> > Deepa
> >
> > Deepa Rathnam Nirmal
> > CD, NID, 1989-95
> > SVP, Creative Services, Visum
> > St. Paul, MN, USA
> >
> > --- Prachi <imprachi@...> wrote:
> > > As Asok pointed out, being a 'female' textile
> > > designer
> > > suddenly sounds like an issue. I'm surprised
> that
> > > such a
> > > bias still exists amongst us so-called
> > > aducated/urban
> > > societies. And ironically that too in a design
> > area
> > > with
> > > the highest women to men ratio.
> > >
> > > Prachi Mishra
> > > NID,TD
> > > 2004
> > > freelancer
> > > New Delhi
> > >
> > >
> > > --- Asok George <asokaag@...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Asok Abraham George
> > > > Design Lead
> > > > Volvo Truck Corporation
> > > > Gothenburg Sweden
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Perhaps I've been living in Sweden for too
> > > > long...........
> > > >
> > > > But posting for a job specifing gender would
> > never
> > > be
> > > > accepted here. Its
> > > > like saying "only whites need apply".
> > > >
> > > > I think such attitudes should not encouraged
> by
> > > the
> > > > design community in
> > > > India.
> > > >
> > > > ASOK
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >From: "Arvind Lodaya"
> <emailarvind@...>
> > > > >Reply-To: designindia@...
> > > > >To: <designindia@...>
> > > > >Subject: [designindia] "male fabric"
> > designer!!1
> > > > >Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 08:31:24 +0530
> > > > >
> > > > >This is how Pradyumna's post showed up in my
> > > mailbox,
> > > > and I think it is
> > > > >deliciously ironic!
> > > > >BTW: What exactly is a "male fabric" and how
> > does
> > > it
> > > > differ from a "female
> > > > >fabric"?
> > > > >   Message: 4
> > > > >      Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 11:41:49 +0530
> > (IST)
> > > > >      From: "Pradyumna Vyas"
> > <pradyumna@...>
> > > > >   Subject: Requirement of a Male Fabric
> > Designer
> > > > >
> > > > >   [This message is not in displayable
> format]
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
_________________________________________________________________
> > > > FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar
> -
> > > get it
> > > > now!
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > Send instant messages to your online friends
> > > http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
> > >
> >
> > Press Enter to Exit. --Computer 'help' message
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Personals - Better first dates. More second
> > dates.
> > http://personals.yahoo.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
>
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Yahoo! Groups Links

From: Anthony Lopez

To: designindia@...

Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2005 9:47 AM

Subject: Re: [designindia] Re: further

Hi! Dhulipala George, Sudhir and all,

I am perfectly fine on all the issues raised so far and am definitely not averse  to the naming bit too. We as a design firm have been fighting on the IP bit for all these years and have been victims too. But I put this all more to our inability to managed these issues well. May be due to our size, scale, individual strength, experience and focus of our industry. One good practice we have started is, we have a Law firm on retainer and do not make any changes to our T & C without consulting them. Besides all major proposals go through them.

Checking on clients credibility and track record is everybody's prerogative and one should defiantly know risk-benefits before indulging in any business activity. Example pitching which most agencies do, has a very high risk against a benefit of getting a large account.

There will always be these evil forces in our midst to fleece the week and meek. But they are not only doing it to designers. It is a universal phenomena. My emphasis is more on protection and if need be fight on legal terms which is technically fair and builds our emerging profession on a strong footing.

Honestly – I do not think there is any thing legally or morally incorrect in this thing and it is healthy and a must do, but I am only concerned with its misuse and focus. Sharing your experiences and seeking opinion, advice and creating awareness is absolutely fair, but just naming, I am  not to sure, I feel cold.

Namaste

Anthony

---

From: Sridhar Dhulipala <s.dhuli@...>
Reply-To: <designindia@...>
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 13:23:40 +0530
To: <designindia@...>
Subject: Re: [designindia] Re: further

Tony,

Putting forward names in a forum such as this is only an act of
dissent since other reasonable efforts didn't pay off. From an ethical
standpoint, this sort of naming is fine, even if you find it
contemptible. In US dissenters cite the first amendment to say what
they think without fear. A lot of debate on Bush't policies happens
online. If it was in the power of such individuals or groups, they
would stop funding Bush's programs. Even this forum has no power to
prevent or stop businesses from operating they way they wish to. It
can only voice it. Recently an employee of Google lost his job for
posting his frank views on Google strategy in his blog. In the case a
Shaw Wallace or BPL were to hear that someone or a few 'black listed'
them on this forum, they may choose to not work with those people. The
point is in the first place the designer herself may decline to work!
Finally, in the context of a civil debate, I think it is perfectly
valid, unless you are legally constrained from mentioning names to do
so. Its in such a debate that you realize how many cases exist and
that hey this is not an isolated odd happening but an industry thing,
and so maybe we need to do something...this sort of debate is good. I
think this sharing is more powerful as something requiring designers
action at a body level to prevent such occurences...maybe it will
translate into a design body level legal cell (much like CII's IPR
cell) to advice designers. For e.g. screen writers in US have a
non-profit body where you could register your script before sharing
with possibly unscruplous producers so that your ideas are not
flicked. Any action of this kind can be debated only when we realize
the extent of the problem. Sharing names is more about this, IMHO,
than to give you a tip "buddy don't touch those guys" kind of thing.
After all, when we go back to our businesses, whom to approach or tap
for growing your topline is an individual business decision - like
George said - tick it off in your head. Factor that into your
discussion. A money lender does that too. That's natural. Maybe, on a
serious note, setting up 'theyhaven'tpaidme.com' (after giving Deepak
15%) is not so practical, but treat that as a signal or a consensus
that errant companies need to amend their ways and puttin pressure in
a civil way is good.
I have a thing for disclaimers, so in this context let me add that I
have never practiced as an independent designer and have remained a
salaried guy all along and don't know what it really is like out
there. So call me an ignoramus if you have to. BTW, I worked in BPL
1993-95 and did hire design services...paying them was tough despite
it being a budgeted item...BPL accounts had something on showing
healthy cash flows and parted with money with some pain. I was
persona-non grata in their accounts office (especially to one
Mr.Panicker, who called me into his chambers and warned me not to
trouble his poor accountants...there I was fighting for a cause).

Regards,

Sridhar Dhulipala
NID PD 1993
Infosys, Bangalore

On Apr 1, 2005 11:23 AM, icarus design <icarusdesign@...> wrote:
> Dear Anthony,
> what you say is correct, but get this, this is not by any means an official
> forum, currently we are indulging ourselves with a bit of gossip,
> about inviting the client........forget it, this is gossip friend keep it
> like that.
> For once it is not bad to pass on a few names ..... and i think the
> implication is not to take all this too seriously and paint anyone black.
> keep the names in the back of your mind and put a mark on it, actually come
> to think of it, chances are that people are going to be working
> with them anyway,
> There is this company based in blore called BEE PEE EL [see no names ] which
> every one and their father knows dont pay......as far as i know
> enough designers have worked with them and got burnt and every one of them
> knew the risk,
> so i agree with you about not painting anyone black, the idea is to keep it
> in the family so that who ever wants to use this piece of information can
> use it.
> george
> icarus design
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Anthony Lopez
> To: designindia@...
> Sent: Friday, April 01, 2005 10:24 AM
> Subject: Re: [designindia] Re: further
>
>
>
>   L  O  P  E  Z     D  E  S  I  G  N        
>
>
> Hi! Everybody
>
> I professionally think the idea of arbitrarily blacklisting clients is not a
> good one.
>
> Let us all remember that we all belong to a common business environment and
> the relationship should be mutual.
>
> We are assuming that we are right about our individual judgement that the
> client has not paid us for the wrong reasons. And therefore paint him black.
> I would like to believe it true for most cases. Let us remind ourselves
> that, although this forum is an informal one it is gaining power with every
> additional member. Due deligence and deliberation is required on how we
> conduct ourselves to create a healthy professional environment for all.
>
> I am of total agreement that this forum needs to discuss such issues and
> more. But if we want to name the client then we should take the trouble to
> include the client in our  discussion.
>
> Yes, we can also form a formal committee where there is a panel making the
> final call and then blacklisting clients and designers. Or together we can
> form a body which has its own lawyers. And post cases we have won.
>
> But what is most significant is to continue discussing how to safeguard our
> interest and being able to make a legal case of the same. And every case won
> will add to the strength of our profession and become a platform to fight
> the next.
>
> Namaste
>
> Anthony Lopez
> PEP Visual communication 1990, NID
>
> Lopez design, New Delhi
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Sridhar Dhulipala <s.dhuli@...>
> Reply-To: <designindia@...>
> Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 19:10:51 +0530
> To: <designindia@...>
> Subject: Re: [designindia] Re: further
>
> Brownie points: If Reliance Infocom goes to Anil Ambani, I wonder if
> it will improve chances for RIL listing on youhaventpaidme.com site
> running on Rel Infocomm infrastructure (assuming they provide hosting
> services, of course). Maybe the site should be hosted on Tata VSNL
> infrastructure since Tata group companies are presumedly ethical in
> honouring contracts.
> ;-)
>
> Sridhar Dhulipala
>
>
> On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 01:59:27 -0800 (PST), Hemant Suthar
> <hsuthar@...> wrote:
> > RELIANCE INDUSTRIES LIMITED
> >
> >
> > --- Sudhir Sharma <sudhirelephant@...> wrote:
> > >
> > > good idea deepak,
> > > and about yr 15%...you may have to be the first one
> > > to list on the
> > > site...
> > > seriously good idea..we could start with naming them
> > > here..on this
> > > group.
> > > sudhir
> > >
> > > --- In designindia@..., "deepak
> > > pathania"
> > > <dpathania@h...> wrote:
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >             
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Make Yahoo! your home page
> > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> > To visit your group on the web, go to:
> > http://in.groups.yahoo.com/group/designindia/
> >   
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > designindia-unsubscribe@...
> >   
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://in.groups.yahoo.com/group/designindia/
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
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>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> I use Burrotech's free email (POP & SMTP) server with anti-virus support,
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---

Yahoo! Groups Links

• To visit your group on the web, go to:
• http://in.groups.yahoo.com/group/designindia/
• To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
• designindia-unsubscribe@... <mailto:designindia-unsubscribe@...?subject=Unsubscribe>
• Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service <http://in.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
  

Hi Everyone,

Even i have tried to register myself but to no avail...i am yet to receive the confirmation...can somebody who has successfully registered explain the procedure... 

Thanx...
Have a good day!
take care,
Shweta
Apparel & Accessory Design
2005
Welspun India Ltd
Mumbai

Hemant, Here is Sumit's previous post.
Sridhar Dhulipala

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Sumit Dey <anotherdey@...>
Date: Dec 31, 2004 5:42 PM
Subject: [designindia] Online Alumni Directory
To: designindia@...



Hi All,

Following link will direct you to a small tool that would help this
community to communicate better... an Online Alumni Directory with
smart search that can fetch you a result when you are not too sure of
a name or surname spelling. E.g. my name is often spelled as Sumit,
Sumeet, Sumith!!!

http://i.1asphost.com/sdey/alumni/

To login, use your name/surname (as mentioned in NID's
certificate)

Username: name[dot]surname[underscore]gradYear (e.g sumit.dey_1993,
no caps)
Password: gradYear  (e.g. 1993)


This is my personal project that's been hosted on a free server,
hence if you face any problem please inform me(anotherdey@yahoo[dot]
com). The database currently includes all designers who have
graduated till 2003, i.e total 966 Alumni (Name, Discipline and Year
of Graduation).

Please treat this as a prototype only and would be glad to have your
comments on further improvements and directions. Works fine with IE
5.0+ and Netscape 7.2(Windows) but not tested on Mac.

Wishing you all a Happy and Prosperous New Year.

Hope the New Year brings this Community more closer.

Regards
Sumit











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Hi! Dhulipala George, Sudhir and all,

I am perfectly fine on all the issues raised so far and am definitely not averse  to the naming bit too. We as a design firm have been fighting on the IP bit for all these years and have been victims too. But I put this all more to our inability to managed these issues well. May be due to our size, scale, individual strength, experience and focus of our industry. One good practice we have started is, we have a Law firm on retainer and do not make any changes to our T & C without consulting them. Besides all major proposals go through them.

Checking on clients credibility and track record is everybody's prerogative and one should defiantly know risk-benefits before indulging in any business activity. Example pitching which most agencies do, has a very high risk against a benefit of getting a large account.

There will always be these evil forces in our midst to fleece the week and meek. But they are not only doing it to designers. It is a universal phenomena. My emphasis is more on protection and if need be fight on legal terms which is technically fair and builds our emerging profession on a strong footing.

Honestly – I do not think there is any thing legally or morally incorrect in this thing and it is healthy and a must do, but I am only concerned with its misuse and focus. Sharing your experiences and seeking opinion, advice and creating awareness is absolutely fair, but just naming, I am  not to sure, I feel cold.

Namaste

Anthony

• To visit your group on the web, go to:
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• designindia-unsubscribe@... <mailto:designindia-unsubscribe@...?subject=Unsubscribe>
• Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service <http://in.docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
  

Can we clarify with Mr.Vyas, whether he was looking
for a person who is men's wear fabric designer?

Srinivasan Jayapal
1992 TD


Srinivasan Jayapal

1501.Little Gloucester Road #L.6

Blackwood.NJ08012.USA

+1 856 227 2411 +1609 442 5275

This conversation seems to be picking up a lot of heat, and
is perhaps fuelled by the fact that few or many of us have
been in a situation similar to this more times than one.

I feel that the point that Sourendu brought out is also
valid. Many people do advertise the requirement for female
merchandisers etc. based on various concerns including the
customers comfort, the merchandise and many times for the
'look good' factor as he pointed out. However, I don't
really see this tit-for-tat as a reason to sit back and let
it remain an unpleasant reality.

If we need to address gender discrimination, we need to
look at it both ways. And maybe address it effectively at
every small step we can. Things don't turn around in a day
but one needs to start somewhere. And this platform can be
an opportunity to do so. no?


Prachi Mishra
NID,TD
2004
freelancer
New Delhi





  --- Nandini <naganandini@...> wrote:
>
> Hey guys
> I am a 'female' designer looking for a job, am elegant
> graceful and charming. I can even change the color of
> my eyes as per requirements.
> Can I design? My art teacher in school always told me
> I was 'creative'. I can also arrange flowers (useful
> for the office reception) and pick curtains.
>
> naga nandini
> NID 83 - 87 PD
> Bangalore
> --- Deepa Rathnam Nirmal <deeparnirmal@...>
> wrote:
>
> >
> > Sourendu,
> >
> > If your female friends don't mind this 'favorable'
> > discrimination, well that too is pathetic in my
> > opinion. Sexism is not dead, by no means, and in no
> > country. Even here in the US I have once heard 'it
> > will be nice to have you as a woman in a roomful of
> > men talking to the client'. Interestingly, shortly
> > thereafter we designed an e-Learning program called
> > 'The Issue is Respect' which dealt with the laws and
> > HR policies on sexual harassment, quid pro quo,
> > gender/race/age discrimination, and valuing
> > diversity.
> >
> > The point is that if you make it difficult for
> > people
> > to maintain their archaic behavior and penalize them
> > strongly, attitudes will change. They will change by
> > fear of punishment first, then over time and a
> > generation or two it will seem surprising that
> > people
> > held such notions. For example,whatever racist
> > feelings people may still entertain, nobody will
> > dare
> > to show them openly by word or deed in this country.
> > Recently Wal-Mart was taken to court in a class
> > action
> > over gender discrimination. I've lost track of the
> > case but no doubt there will be a substantial
> > settlement and they will start promoting women to
> > senior positions.
> >
> > Let's start doing what you suggest: make industry
> > realize that IN
> > > THE
> > > FIELD OF DESIGN  GENDER DOESNOT PLAY ANY
> > ROLE...ITS
> > > THE OUT COME FROM A DESIGNER MATTERS.."
> >
> >
> > Sincerely,
> > Deepa
> > (who as a woman from a minority group in the US is
> > doing just fine without any pro or con
> > discrimination,
> > thank you)
> >
> > Deepa Rathnam Nirmal
> > Communication Design, NID, 1989-95
> > SVP, Creative Services, Visum
> > St. Paul, MN, USA
> >
> >
> > --- sourendu das <sourendu@...> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > hi deepa!
> > > nice to see discussions on topic like "male fabric
> > > designer" in this group. as you have mentioned " a
> > > male- what possible relevance a person's sex
> > > > would have for the job is beyond me. Are they
> > > > expecting the person to work in some hazardous
> > > > situation where a 'delicate' female would not
> > > > survive?"
> > > i want to put forward a point that in india
> > > (specially
> > > in delhi"the capital of india")if you go through
> > any
> > > classifieds for textile designer/merchandiser job
> > or
> > > projects 80% times you will find "wanted only
> > female
> > > designers or merchandisers". so in this case can
> > we
> > > assume that companies do not want the caliber of a
> > > designer in  related field but a female who can be
> > > pleasant to look at/ good at hospitality in office
> > > and
> > > buyer meetings?????(this might trigger another
> > > direction for discussion). hey my female friends
> > in
> > > textile line don't feel hurt or angry.....
> > > so this is already there in india and i donot
> > think
> > > its an issue to write male fabric designer in an
> > > advertisement.
> > > the main point is to make industry realize that IN
> > > THE
> > > FIELD OF DESIGN  GENDER DOESNOT PLAY ANY
> > ROLE...ITS
> > > THE OUT COME FROM A DESIGNER MATTERS.."
> > > cheer up....
> > > sourendu
> > > TD,2002
> > > weavetex overseas, delhi
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Deepa Rathnam Nirmal <deeparnirmal@...>
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I have to add I too was shocked to see the
> > > > stipulation
> > > > for a male- what possible relevance a person's
> > sex
> > > > would have for the job is beyond me. Are they
> > > > expecting the person to work in some hazardous
> > > > situation where a 'delicate' female would not
> > > > survive?
> > > > Or is there some serious heavy lifting involved?
> > > >
> > > > Here in the US, there would be a line of gleeful
> > > > lawyers outside the door of the organization
> > > before
> > > > you could utter the word 'lawsuit'. Somebody
> > needs
> > > > to
> > > > inform these people that such double standards,
> > if
> > > > not
> > > > passé, definitely deserve to be.
> > > >
> > > > Deepa
> > > >
> > > > Deepa Rathnam Nirmal
> > > > CD, NID, 1989-95
> > > > SVP, Creative Services, Visum
> > > > St. Paul, MN, USA
> > > >
> > > > --- Prachi <imprachi@...> wrote:
> > > > > As Asok pointed out, being a 'female' textile
> > > > > designer
> > > > > suddenly sounds like an issue. I'm surprised
> > > that
> > > > > such a
> > > > > bias still exists amongst us so-called
> > > > > aducated/urban
> > > > > societies. And ironically that too in a design
> > > > area
> > > > > with
> > > > > the highest women to men ratio.
> > > > >
> > > > > Prachi Mishra
> > > > > NID,TD
> > > > > 2004
> > > > > freelancer
> > > > > New Delhi
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- Asok George <asokaag@...> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Asok Abraham George
> > > > > > Design Lead
> > > > > > Volvo Truck Corporation
> > > > > > Gothenburg Sweden
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Perhaps I've been living in Sweden for too
> > > > > > long...........
> > > > > >
> > > > > > But posting for a job specifing gender would
> > > > never
> > > > > be
> > > > > > accepted here. Its
> > > > > > like saying "only whites need apply".
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I think such attitudes should not encouraged
> > > by
> > > > > the
> > > > > > design community in
> > > > > > India.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ASOK
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >From: "Arvind Lodaya"
> > > <emailarvind@...>
> > > > > > >Reply-To: designindia@...
> > > > > > >To: <designindia@...>
> > > > > > >Subject: [designindia] "male fabric"
> > > > designer!!1
> > > > > > >Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 08:31:24 +0530
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >This is how Pradyumna's post showed up in
> > my
> > > > > mailbox,
> > > > > > and I think it is
> > > > > > >deliciously ironic!
> > > > > > >BTW: What exactly is a "male fabric" and
> > how
> > > > does
> > > > > it
> > > > > > differ from a "female
> > > > > > >fabric"?
> >
> === message truncated ===
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Personals - Better first dates. More second dates.
>
> http://personals.yahoo.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

Hey guys
I am a 'female' designer looking for a job, am elegant
graceful and charming. I can even change the color of
my eyes as per requirements.
Can I design? My art teacher in school always told me
I was 'creative'. I can also arrange flowers (useful
for the office reception) and pick curtains.

naga nandini
NID 83 - 87 PD
Bangalore
--- Deepa Rathnam Nirmal <deeparnirmal@...>
wrote:

>
> Sourendu,
>
> If your female friends don't mind this 'favorable'
> discrimination, well that too is pathetic in my
> opinion. Sexism is not dead, by no means, and in no
> country. Even here in the US I have once heard 'it
> will be nice to have you as a woman in a roomful of
> men talking to the client'. Interestingly, shortly
> thereafter we designed an e-Learning program called
> 'The Issue is Respect' which dealt with the laws and
> HR policies on sexual harassment, quid pro quo,
> gender/race/age discrimination, and valuing
> diversity.
>
> The point is that if you make it difficult for
> people
> to maintain their archaic behavior and penalize them
> strongly, attitudes will change. They will change by
> fear of punishment first, then over time and a
> generation or two it will seem surprising that
> people
> held such notions. For example,whatever racist
> feelings people may still entertain, nobody will
> dare
> to show them openly by word or deed in this country.
> Recently Wal-Mart was taken to court in a class
> action
> over gender discrimination. I've lost track of the
> case but no doubt there will be a substantial
> settlement and they will start promoting women to
> senior positions.
>
> Let's start doing what you suggest: make industry
> realize that IN
> > THE
> > FIELD OF DESIGN  GENDER DOESNOT PLAY ANY
> ROLE...ITS
> > THE OUT COME FROM A DESIGNER MATTERS.."
>
>
> Sincerely,
> Deepa
> (who as a woman from a minority group in the US is
> doing just fine without any pro or con
> discrimination,
> thank you)
>
> Deepa Rathnam Nirmal
> Communication Design, NID, 1989-95
> SVP, Creative Services, Visum
> St. Paul, MN, USA
>
>
> --- sourendu das <sourendu@...> wrote:
>
> >
> > hi deepa!
> > nice to see discussions on topic like "male fabric
> > designer" in this group. as you have mentioned " a
> > male- what possible relevance a person's sex
> > > would have for the job is beyond me. Are they
> > > expecting the person to work in some hazardous
> > > situation where a 'delicate' female would not
> > > survive?"
> > i want to put forward a point that in india
> > (specially
> > in delhi"the capital of india")if you go through
> any
> > classifieds for textile designer/merchandiser job
> or
> > projects 80% times you will find "wanted only
> female
> > designers or merchandisers". so in this case can
> we
> > assume that companies do not want the caliber of a
> > designer in  related field but a female who can be
> > pleasant to look at/ good at hospitality in office
> > and
> > buyer meetings?????(this might trigger another
> > direction for discussion). hey my female friends
> in
> > textile line don't feel hurt or angry.....
> > so this is already there in india and i donot
> think
> > its an issue to write male fabric designer in an
> > advertisement.
> > the main point is to make industry realize that IN
> > THE
> > FIELD OF DESIGN  GENDER DOESNOT PLAY ANY
> ROLE...ITS
> > THE OUT COME FROM A DESIGNER MATTERS.."
> > cheer up....
> > sourendu
> > TD,2002
> > weavetex overseas, delhi
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Deepa Rathnam Nirmal <deeparnirmal@...>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > I have to add I too was shocked to see the
> > > stipulation
> > > for a male- what possible relevance a person's
> sex
> > > would have for the job is beyond me. Are they
> > > expecting the person to work in some hazardous
> > > situation where a 'delicate' female would not
> > > survive?
> > > Or is there some serious heavy lifting involved?
> > >
> > > Here in the US, there would be a line of gleeful
> > > lawyers outside the door of the organization
> > before
> > > you could utter the word 'lawsuit'. Somebody
> needs
> > > to
> > > inform these people that such double standards,
> if
> > > not
> > > passé, definitely deserve to be.
> > >
> > > Deepa
> > >
> > > Deepa Rathnam Nirmal
> > > CD, NID, 1989-95
> > > SVP, Creative Services, Visum
> > > St. Paul, MN, USA
> > >
> > > --- Prachi <imprachi@...> wrote:
> > > > As Asok pointed out, being a 'female' textile
> > > > designer
> > > > suddenly sounds like an issue. I'm surprised
> > that
> > > > such a
> > > > bias still exists amongst us so-called
> > > > aducated/urban
> > > > societies. And ironically that too in a design
> > > area
> > > > with
> > > > the highest women to men ratio.
> > > >
> > > > Prachi Mishra
> > > > NID,TD
> > > > 2004
> > > > freelancer
> > > > New Delhi
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- Asok George <asokaag@...> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Asok Abraham George
> > > > > Design Lead
> > > > > Volvo Truck Corporation
> > > > > Gothenburg Sweden
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Perhaps I've been living in Sweden for too
> > > > > long...........
> > > > >
> > > > > But posting for a job specifing gender would
> > > never
> > > > be
> > > > > accepted here. Its
> > > > > like saying "only whites need apply".
> > > > >
> > > > > I think such attitudes should not encouraged
> > by
> > > > the
> > > > > design community in
> > > > > India.
> > > > >
> > > > > ASOK
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >From: "Arvind Lodaya"
> > <emailarvind@...>
> > > > > >Reply-To: designindia@...
> > > > > >To: <designindia@...>
> > > > > >Subject: [designindia] "male fabric"
> > > designer!!1
> > > > > >Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 08:31:24 +0530
> > > > > >
> > > > > >This is how Pradyumna's post showed up in
> my
> > > > mailbox,
> > > > > and I think it is
> > > > > >deliciously ironic!
> > > > > >BTW: What exactly is a "male fabric" and
> how
> > > does
> > > > it
> > > > > differ from a "female
> > > > > >fabric"?
>
=== message truncated ===




__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Personals - Better first dates. More second dates.
http://personals.yahoo.com

Sourendu,

If your female friends don't mind this 'favorable'
discrimination, well that too is pathetic in my
opinion. Sexism is not dead, by no means, and in no
country. Even here in the US I have once heard 'it
will be nice to have you as a woman in a roomful of
men talking to the client'. Interestingly, shortly
thereafter we designed an e-Learning program called
'The Issue is Respect' which dealt with the laws and
HR policies on sexual harassment, quid pro quo,
gender/race/age discrimination, and valuing diversity.

The point is that if you make it difficult for people
to maintain their archaic behavior and penalize them
strongly, attitudes will change. They will change by
fear of punishment first, then over time and a
generation or two it will seem surprising that people
held such notions. For example,whatever racist
feelings people may still entertain, nobody will dare
to show them openly by word or deed in this country.
Recently Wal-Mart was taken to court in a class action
over gender discrimination. I've lost track of the
case but no doubt there will be a substantial
settlement and they will start promoting women to
senior positions.

Let's start doing what you suggest: make industry
realize that IN
> THE
> FIELD OF DESIGN  GENDER DOESNOT PLAY ANY ROLE...ITS
> THE OUT COME FROM A DESIGNER MATTERS.."


Sincerely,
Deepa
(who as a woman from a minority group in the US is
doing just fine without any pro or con discrimination,
thank you)

Deepa Rathnam Nirmal
Communication Design, NID, 1989-95
SVP, Creative Services, Visum
St. Paul, MN, USA


--- sourendu das <sourendu@...> wrote:

>
> hi deepa!
> nice to see discussions on topic like "male fabric
> designer" in this group. as you have mentioned " a
> male- what possible relevance a person's sex
> > would have for the job is beyond me. Are they
> > expecting the person to work in some hazardous
> > situation where a 'delicate' female would not
> > survive?"
> i want to put forward a point that in india
> (specially
> in delhi"the capital of india")if you go through any
> classifieds for textile designer/merchandiser job or
> projects 80% times you will find "wanted only female
> designers or merchandisers". so in this case can we
> assume that companies do not want the caliber of a
> designer in  related field but a female who can be
> pleasant to look at/ good at hospitality in office
> and
> buyer meetings?????(this might trigger another
> direction for discussion). hey my female friends in
> textile line don't feel hurt or angry.....
> so this is already there in india and i donot think
> its an issue to write male fabric designer in an
> advertisement.
> the main point is to make industry realize that IN
> THE
> FIELD OF DESIGN  GENDER DOESNOT PLAY ANY ROLE...ITS
> THE OUT COME FROM A DESIGNER MATTERS.."
> cheer up....
> sourendu
> TD,2002
> weavetex overseas, delhi
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Deepa Rathnam Nirmal <deeparnirmal@...> wrote:
> >
> > I have to add I too was shocked to see the
> > stipulation
> > for a male- what possible relevance a person's sex
> > would have for the job is beyond me. Are they
> > expecting the person to work in some hazardous
> > situation where a 'delicate' female would not
> > survive?
> > Or is there some serious heavy lifting involved?
> >
> > Here in the US, there would be a line of gleeful
> > lawyers outside the door of the organization
> before
> > you could utter the word 'lawsuit'. Somebody needs
> > to
> > inform these people that such double standards, if
> > not
> > passé, definitely deserve to be.
> >
> > Deepa
> >
> > Deepa Rathnam Nirmal
> > CD, NID, 1989-95
> > SVP, Creative Services, Visum
> > St. Paul, MN, USA
> >
> > --- Prachi <imprachi@...> wrote:
> > > As Asok pointed out, being a 'female' textile
> > > designer
> > > suddenly sounds like an issue. I'm surprised
> that
> > > such a
> > > bias still exists amongst us so-called
> > > aducated/urban
> > > societies. And ironically that too in a design
> > area
> > > with
> > > the highest women to men ratio.
> > >
> > > Prachi Mishra
> > > NID,TD
> > > 2004
> > > freelancer
> > > New Delhi
> > >
> > >
> > > --- Asok George <asokaag@...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Asok Abraham George
> > > > Design Lead
> > > > Volvo Truck Corporation
> > > > Gothenburg Sweden
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Perhaps I've been living in Sweden for too
> > > > long...........
> > > >
> > > > But posting for a job specifing gender would
> > never
> > > be
> > > > accepted here. Its
> > > > like saying "only whites need apply".
> > > >
> > > > I think such attitudes should not encouraged
> by
> > > the
> > > > design community in
> > > > India.
> > > >
> > > > ASOK
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >From: "Arvind Lodaya"
> <emailarvind@...>
> > > > >Reply-To: designindia@...
> > > > >To: <designindia@...>
> > > > >Subject: [designindia] "male fabric"
> > designer!!1
> > > > >Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 08:31:24 +0530
> > > > >
> > > > >This is how Pradyumna's post showed up in my
> > > mailbox,
> > > > and I think it is
> > > > >deliciously ironic!
> > > > >BTW: What exactly is a "male fabric" and how
> > does
> > > it
> > > > differ from a "female
> > > > >fabric"?
> > > > >   Message: 4
> > > > >      Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 11:41:49 +0530
> > (IST)
> > > > >      From: "Pradyumna Vyas"
> > <pradyumna@...>
> > > > >   Subject: Requirement of a Male Fabric
> > Designer
> > > > >
> > > > >   [This message is not in displayable
> format]
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
_________________________________________________________________
> > > > FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar
> -
> > > get it
> > > > now!
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > Send instant messages to your online friends
> > > http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
> > >
> >
> > Press Enter to Exit. --Computer 'help' message
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Personals - Better first dates. More second
> > dates.
> > http://personals.yahoo.com
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> >
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> >
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> >
> >
> >     designindia-unsubscribe@...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> __________________________________________________
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> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
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>
>
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>
>
=== message truncated ===


Press Enter to Exit. --Computer 'help' message




__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Personals - Better first dates. More second dates.
http://personals.yahoo.com

hi deepa!
nice to see discussions on topic like "male fabric
designer" in this group. as you have mentioned " a
male- what possible relevance a person's sex
> would have for the job is beyond me. Are they
> expecting the person to work in some hazardous
> situation where a 'delicate' female would not
> survive?"
i want to put forward a point that in india (specially
in delhi"the capital of india")if you go through any
classifieds for textile designer/merchandiser job or
projects 80% times you will find "wanted only female
designers or merchandisers". so in this case can we
assume that companies do not want the caliber of a
designer in  related field but a female who can be
pleasant to look at/ good at hospitality in office and
buyer meetings?????(this might trigger another
direction for discussion). hey my female friends in
textile line don't feel hurt or angry.....
so this is already there in india and i donot think
its an issue to write male fabric designer in an
advertisement.
the main point is to make industry realize that IN THE
FIELD OF DESIGN  GENDER DOESNOT PLAY ANY ROLE...ITS
THE OUT COME FROM A DESIGNER MATTERS.."
cheer up....
sourendu
TD,2002
weavetex overseas, delhi






Deepa Rathnam Nirmal <deeparnirmal@...> wrote:
>
> I have to add I too was shocked to see the
> stipulation
> for a male- what possible relevance a person's sex
> would have for the job is beyond me. Are they
> expecting the person to work in some hazardous
> situation where a 'delicate' female would not
> survive?
> Or is there some serious heavy lifting involved?
>
> Here in the US, there would be a line of gleeful
> lawyers outside the door of the organization before
> you could utter the word 'lawsuit'. Somebody needs
> to
> inform these people that such double standards, if
> not
> passé, definitely deserve to be.
>
> Deepa
>
> Deepa Rathnam Nirmal
> CD, NID, 1989-95
> SVP, Creative Services, Visum
> St. Paul, MN, USA
>
> --- Prachi <imprachi@...> wrote:
> > As Asok pointed out, being a 'female' textile
> > designer
> > suddenly sounds like an issue. I'm surprised that
> > such a
> > bias still exists amongst us so-called
> > aducated/urban
> > societies. And ironically that too in a design
> area
> > with
> > the highest women to men ratio.
> >
> > Prachi Mishra
> > NID,TD
> > 2004
> > freelancer
> > New Delhi
> >
> >
> > --- Asok George <asokaag@...> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Asok Abraham George
> > > Design Lead
> > > Volvo Truck Corporation
> > > Gothenburg Sweden
> > >
> > >
> > > Perhaps I've been living in Sweden for too
> > > long...........
> > >
> > > But posting for a job specifing gender would
> never
> > be
> > > accepted here. Its
> > > like saying "only whites need apply".
> > >
> > > I think such attitudes should not encouraged by
> > the
> > > design community in
> > > India.
> > >
> > > ASOK
> > >
> > >
> > > >From: "Arvind Lodaya" <emailarvind@...>
> > > >Reply-To: designindia@...
> > > >To: <designindia@...>
> > > >Subject: [designindia] "male fabric"
> designer!!1
> > > >Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 08:31:24 +0530
> > > >
> > > >This is how Pradyumna's post showed up in my
> > mailbox,
> > > and I think it is
> > > >deliciously ironic!
> > > >BTW: What exactly is a "male fabric" and how
> does
> > it
> > > differ from a "female
> > > >fabric"?
> > > >   Message: 4
> > > >      Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 11:41:49 +0530
> (IST)
> > > >      From: "Pradyumna Vyas"
> <pradyumna@...>
> > > >   Subject: Requirement of a Male Fabric
> Designer
> > > >
> > > >   [This message is not in displayable format]
> > >
> > >
> >
>
_________________________________________________________________
> > > FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar -
> > get it
> > > now!
> > >
> >
>
http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Send instant messages to your online friends
> > http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
> >
>
> Press Enter to Exit. --Computer 'help' message
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Personals - Better first dates. More second
> dates.
> http://personals.yahoo.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>     designindia-unsubscribe@...
>
>
>
>
>
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

Sharad,

Its true that there are lot of issues (mostly design and usability
related)regarding all the applications in NID whether its the
KMC/Resource Center application for browsing and searching KMC
resources, intranet, NID email or even the NID website.

But the problem is more at the implementation level (or rather i
will say at the administration level). There have been many student
projects on KMC search interface, intranet etc, though i dont know
about Alumni registration interface. But none of the designs have
been implemented yet. Infact no interest has been shown from the
administrative side.

We have SUID and New media students on campus and we all know that
there are a lot of issues with all these interfaces but we cant do
much about it except for starting our own implementations (something
that is happening now).

One way out of this will be to pressurize the administration esp the
IT dept on improving the interfaces and the alumni can play a major
role here.

regards
mayank



--- In designindia@..., "Sharad Solanki"
<Sharad.Solanki@s...> wrote:
> Siddharth,
>
> The interface of the register application is pathetically designed
(sorry for such strong comments) but its irony that so many SUID,
New Media people gets out of Institute and they could never see very
small usability problems like:
>
> -          The search is case sensitive - like u will never get me
if u search for 'sharad' as my name is registered as 'Sharad'. I
won't comment that why a user needs to select checkbox when he has
already typed in the text field.
>
> -          The login button doesn't have affordance of button
>
> -          Changing navigation on top which increases the
cognitive load.
>
> -          The menu item is center aligned leaving aside the text
being center align.
>
> -          ..... I can go on and on
>
> -          ...... Neither would I comment on the NID site itself.
I think looking at models like RCA, CMU site could give better
introspect to the implementers about how to design institute site
should be.
>
> I had sent comment to the webmaster long time back but this seems
to be one of those unimportant things in life.
>
> Let's hope someday somebody could take a note of it and fix it.
>
>
>
> Sharad
>
>
>
>
>
>   _____
>
> From: siddharth Dash [mailto:siddharth_dash@y...]
> Sent: Friday, April 01, 2005 1:29 PM
> To: designindia@...
> Subject: Re: [designindia] Fw: Alumni registration at NID online
directory
>
>
>
> Hi all
>
> I have tried several times (not less than three times)
> to register myself.  Till date I have not received any
> confirmation in my mail ID.
>
> I suppose NID site has a better engine to handle such
> registrations (at least better than irctc).
>
> Can someone help me (persons responsible at NID should
> respond specifically) to register. What's going wrong?
>
> Let's talk about design for 'usability' right here.
>
> Siddharth Dash
> AEP Product Design 1992
> Mumbai
>
>
> --- Manish Joshi <manish@j...> wrote:
> > Hi all
> > I am forwarding a mail from NID requesting the
> > alumni to register
> > themselves at the NID website
> >
> > Forwarded message attached-
> > ***********************************
> > Hi!
> >
> > This is webmaster from NID.  As you have registered
> > on to graduate
> > directory
> >
> (<http://www.nid.edu/graduates>www.nid.edu/graduates),
> > kindly ask
> > your NID graduate friends to register and update
> > their profiles.  So far
> > 1060 students have been graduated from NID but only
> > 150 of them registered
> > and updated their profiles.  Therefore, I request
> > you to spread this
> > message among your NID graduate friends to update
> > their profiles as early
> > as possible.
> >
> > Thank you!
> >
> >   Regards
> > webmaster
> >
>
>
_____________________________________________________________________
___
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Dear Deepa,
Believe me i am not against Female Designers.
I think you misinterpreted my previous mail; I am not
trying to complicate the situation.
I am not at all advocating for such discrimination.
It’s really hard to understand the possible reason of
NOT recruiting a female designer apart from security
reasons or the time structure of the organization
I was just trying to understand what could be the
hidden reason for such a specific recruitment (Male
Designer), and that was the reason that I shared News
about on going controversy.

But i totally agree with you that we should not
encourage such discriminatory act.

Rit
National Institute of Design,
Ahmedabad, India
www.ritwithfireworks.com
www.rit.in

-----------------------------x-------------x-------
--- Deepa Rathnam Nirmal <deeparnirmal@...>
wrote:

>
> Rit, your explanation and attempted justification is
> only making the whole controversy worse, IMO.
>
> So, rather than improving conditions, we just accept
> that women should not work at night, and start
> formalizing this discrimination? This is just
> boggling
> my mind.
>
> What next, shall we bar women from the police,
> since,
> gee whiz, they may come in contact with criminals in
> that situation?
>
> By further extension of this logic, let's also bar
> women from NID, IDC, NIFT etc.- women don't make
> good
> designers anyway. And let's see, what else can we do
> to roll society back a few hundred years?
>
> Furiously,
> Deepa
>
>
>
>
>
> --- Rit <rit4you@...> wrote:
>
> >
> > Dear Female/Male designers,
> > LAST WEEK NEWS:
> >
> > Textile units cheer move to allow women work late
> > night
> >  G. Gurumurthy
> >  Coimbatore , March 31
> >
> >  THE Central Government's decision to amend the
> > Factories Act to allow women to work in night
> shift
> > between 10 p.m. and 5 a.m. has cheered the textile
> > sector, which have been calling for labour reforms
> > in
> > the face of what they call a shortfall in
> > competitive
> > labour to tackle global trade.
> > -----------------------------------
> > THIS WEEK NEWS:
> > Reverse decision on night shift for women workers:
>
> >
> > New Delhi, Mar 31 (UNI) Strongly opposing the
> Union
> > cabinet's decision to allow night shifts for women
> > workers, the pro-CPI(M) Centre of Indian Trade
> > Unions
> > (CITU) today urged the government to reverse the
> > decision saying working conditions throughout the
> > country doesn't call for such a move.
> >
> > "This unilateral decision, just two days prior to
> > the
> > meeting of the Labour Minister with the central
> > trade
> > unions, is only to placate the employers,
> > particularly
> > in the SEZ/EPZ and garment sector," Mr Sen said.
> >
> > "The present environment in work places throughout
> > the
> > country is not conducive to venture on such a
> > precipitative move," he said urging the government
> > to
> > reverse the decision.
> >
>
_________________________________________________________________
> >
> > So, I believe the requirement could be of a male
> > designer.
> > We should not encourage such discrimination but I
> > believe its is not practical to be so idealistic
> in
> > present environment in India.
> >
> > To cut it short. They might be looking for a MALE
> > designer who can work day and night for them. J
> >
> > Regards
> > Rit
> >
> >
> >
> > --- Deepa Rathnam Nirmal <deeparnirmal@...>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > I have to add I too was shocked to see the
> > > stipulation
> > > for a male- what possible relevance a person's
> sex
> > > would have for the job is beyond me. Are they
> > > expecting the person to work in some hazardous
> > > situation where a 'delicate' female would not
> > > survive?
> > > Or is there some serious heavy lifting involved?
> > >
> > > Here in the US, there would be a line of gleeful
> > > lawyers outside the door of the organization
> > before
> > > you could utter the word 'lawsuit'. Somebody
> needs
> > > to
> > > inform these people that such double standards,
> if
> > > not
> > > passé, definitely deserve to be.
> > >
> > > Deepa
> > >
> > > Deepa Rathnam Nirmal
> > > CD, NID, 1989-95
> > > SVP, Creative Services, Visum
> > > St. Paul, MN, USA
> > >
> > > --- Prachi <imprachi@...> wrote:
> > > > As Asok pointed out, being a 'female' textile
> > > > designer
> > > > suddenly sounds like an issue. I'm surprised
> > that
> > > > such a
> > > > bias still exists amongst us so-called
> > > > aducated/urban
> > > > societies. And ironically that too in a design
> > > area
> > > > with
> > > > the highest women to men ratio.
> > > >
> > > > Prachi Mishra
> > > > NID,TD
> > > > 2004
> > > > freelancer
> > > > New Delhi
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- Asok George <asokaag@...> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Asok Abraham George
> > > > > Design Lead
> > > > > Volvo Truck Corporation
> > > > > Gothenburg Sweden
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Perhaps I've been living in Sweden for too
> > > > > long...........
> > > > >
> > > > > But posting for a job specifing gender would
> > > never
> > > > be
> > > > > accepted here. Its
> > > > > like saying "only whites need apply".
> > > > >
> > > > > I think such attitudes should not encouraged
> > by
> > > > the
> > > > > design community in
> > > > > India.
> > > > >
> > > > > ASOK
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >From: "Arvind Lodaya"
> > <emailarvind@...>
> > > > > >Reply-To: designindia@...
> > > > > >To: <designindia@...>
> > > > > >Subject: [designindia] "male fabric"
> > > designer!!1
> > > > > >Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 08:31:24 +0530
> > > > > >
> > > > > >This is how Pradyumna's post showed up in
> my
> > > > mailbox,
> > > > > and I think it is
> > > > > >deliciously ironic!
> > > > > >BTW: What exactly is a "male fabric" and
> how
> > > does
> > > > it
> > > > > differ from a "female
> > > > > >fabric"?
> > > > > >   Message: 4
> > > > > >      Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 11:41:49 +0530
> > > (IST)
> > > > > >      From: "Pradyumna Vyas"
> > > <pradyumna@...>
> > > > > >   Subject: Requirement of a Male Fabric
> > > Designer
> > > > > >
>
=== message truncated ===


National Institute of Design
New Media Dept.
Ahmedabad, India



__________________________________
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Show us what our next emoticon should look like. Join the fun.
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Rit, your explanation and attempted justification is
only making the whole controversy worse, IMO.

So, rather than improving conditions, we just accept
that women should not work at night, and start
formalizing this discrimination? This is just boggling
my mind.

What next, shall we bar women from the police, since,
gee whiz, they may come in contact with criminals in
that situation?

By further extension of this logic, let's also bar
women from NID, IDC, NIFT etc.- women don't make good
designers anyway. And let's see, what else can we do
to roll society back a few hundred years?

Furiously,
Deepa





--- Rit <rit4you@...> wrote:

>
> Dear Female/Male designers,
> LAST WEEK NEWS:
>
> Textile units cheer move to allow women work late
> night
>  G. Gurumurthy
>  Coimbatore , March 31
>
>  THE Central Government's decision to amend the
> Factories Act to allow women to work in night shift
> between 10 p.m. and 5 a.m. has cheered the textile
> sector, which have been calling for labour reforms
> in
> the face of what they call a shortfall in
> competitive
> labour to tackle global trade.
> -----------------------------------
> THIS WEEK NEWS:
> Reverse decision on night shift for women workers:
>
> New Delhi, Mar 31 (UNI) Strongly opposing the Union
> cabinet's decision to allow night shifts for women
> workers, the pro-CPI(M) Centre of Indian Trade
> Unions
> (CITU) today urged the government to reverse the
> decision saying working conditions throughout the
> country doesn't call for such a move.
>
> "This unilateral decision, just two days prior to
> the
> meeting of the Labour Minister with the central
> trade
> unions, is only to placate the employers,
> particularly
> in the SEZ/EPZ and garment sector," Mr Sen said.
>
> "The present environment in work places throughout
> the
> country is not conducive to venture on such a
> precipitative move," he said urging the government
> to
> reverse the decision.
>
_________________________________________________________________
>
> So, I believe the requirement could be of a male
> designer.
> We should not encourage such discrimination but I
> believe its is not practical to be so idealistic in
> present environment in India.
>
> To cut it short. They might be looking for a MALE
> designer who can work day and night for them. J
>
> Regards
> Rit
>
>
>
> --- Deepa Rathnam Nirmal <deeparnirmal@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > I have to add I too was shocked to see the
> > stipulation
> > for a male- what possible relevance a person's sex
> > would have for the job is beyond me. Are they
> > expecting the person to work in some hazardous
> > situation where a 'delicate' female would not
> > survive?
> > Or is there some serious heavy lifting involved?
> >
> > Here in the US, there would be a line of gleeful
> > lawyers outside the door of the organization
> before
> > you could utter the word 'lawsuit'. Somebody needs
> > to
> > inform these people that such double standards, if
> > not
> > passé, definitely deserve to be.
> >
> > Deepa
> >
> > Deepa Rathnam Nirmal
> > CD, NID, 1989-95
> > SVP, Creative Services, Visum
> > St. Paul, MN, USA
> >
> > --- Prachi <imprachi@...> wrote:
> > > As Asok pointed out, being a 'female' textile
> > > designer
> > > suddenly sounds like an issue. I'm surprised
> that
> > > such a
> > > bias still exists amongst us so-called
> > > aducated/urban
> > > societies. And ironically that too in a design
> > area
> > > with
> > > the highest women to men ratio.
> > >
> > > Prachi Mishra
> > > NID,TD
> > > 2004
> > > freelancer
> > > New Delhi
> > >
> > >
> > > --- Asok George <asokaag@...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Asok Abraham George
> > > > Design Lead
> > > > Volvo Truck Corporation
> > > > Gothenburg Sweden
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Perhaps I've been living in Sweden for too
> > > > long...........
> > > >
> > > > But posting for a job specifing gender would
> > never
> > > be
> > > > accepted here. Its
> > > > like saying "only whites need apply".
> > > >
> > > > I think such attitudes should not encouraged
> by
> > > the
> > > > design community in
> > > > India.
> > > >
> > > > ASOK
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >From: "Arvind Lodaya"
> <emailarvind@...>
> > > > >Reply-To: designindia@...
> > > > >To: <designindia@...>
> > > > >Subject: [designindia] "male fabric"
> > designer!!1
> > > > >Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 08:31:24 +0530
> > > > >
> > > > >This is how Pradyumna's post showed up in my
> > > mailbox,
> > > > and I think it is
> > > > >deliciously ironic!
> > > > >BTW: What exactly is a "male fabric" and how
> > does
> > > it
> > > > differ from a "female
> > > > >fabric"?
> > > > >   Message: 4
> > > > >      Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 11:41:49 +0530
> > (IST)
> > > > >      From: "Pradyumna Vyas"
> > <pradyumna@...>
> > > > >   Subject: Requirement of a Male Fabric
> > Designer
> > > > >
> > > > >   [This message is not in displayable
> format]
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
_________________________________________________________________
> > > > FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar
> -
> > > get it
> > > > now!
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > Send instant messages to your online friends
> > > http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
> > >
> >
> > Press Enter to Exit. --Computer 'help' message
> >
> >
> >
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> > dates.
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> >
>
=== message truncated ===


Press Enter to Exit. --Computer 'help' message




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Dear Female/Male designers,
LAST WEEK NEWS:

Textile units cheer move to allow women work late
night
  G. Gurumurthy
  Coimbatore , March 31

  THE Central Government's decision to amend the
Factories Act to allow women to work in night shift
between 10 p.m. and 5 a.m. has cheered the textile
sector, which have been calling for labour reforms in
the face of what they call a shortfall in competitive
labour to tackle global trade.
-----------------------------------
THIS WEEK NEWS:
Reverse decision on night shift for women workers:

New Delhi, Mar 31 (UNI) Strongly opposing the Union
cabinet's decision to allow night shifts for women
workers, the pro-CPI(M) Centre of Indian Trade Unions
(CITU) today urged the government to reverse the
decision saying working conditions throughout the
country doesn't call for such a move.

"This unilateral decision, just two days prior to the
meeting of the Labour Minister with the central trade
unions, is only to placate the employers, particularly
in the SEZ/EPZ and garment sector," Mr Sen said.

"The present environment in work places throughout the
country is not conducive to venture on such a
precipitative move," he said urging the government to
reverse the decision.
_________________________________________________________________

So, I believe the requirement could be of a male
designer.
We should not encourage such discrimination but I
believe its is not practical to be so idealistic in
present environment in India.

To cut it short. They might be looking for a MALE
designer who can work day and night for them. J

Regards
Rit



--- Deepa Rathnam Nirmal <deeparnirmal@...>
wrote:
>
> I have to add I too was shocked to see the
> stipulation
> for a male- what possible relevance a person's sex
> would have for the job is beyond me. Are they
> expecting the person to work in some hazardous
> situation where a 'delicate' female would not
> survive?
> Or is there some serious heavy lifting involved?
>
> Here in the US, there would be a line of gleeful
> lawyers outside the door of the organization before
> you could utter the word 'lawsuit'. Somebody needs
> to
> inform these people that such double standards, if
> not
> passé, definitely deserve to be.
>
> Deepa
>
> Deepa Rathnam Nirmal
> CD, NID, 1989-95
> SVP, Creative Services, Visum
> St. Paul, MN, USA
>
> --- Prachi <imprachi@...> wrote:
> > As Asok pointed out, being a 'female' textile
> > designer
> > suddenly sounds like an issue. I'm surprised that
> > such a
> > bias still exists amongst us so-called
> > aducated/urban
> > societies. And ironically that too in a design
> area
> > with
> > the highest women to men ratio.
> >
> > Prachi Mishra
> > NID,TD
> > 2004
> > freelancer
> > New Delhi
> >
> >
> > --- Asok George <asokaag@...> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Asok Abraham George
> > > Design Lead
> > > Volvo Truck Corporation
> > > Gothenburg Sweden
> > >
> > >
> > > Perhaps I've been living in Sweden for too
> > > long...........
> > >
> > > But posting for a job specifing gender would
> never
> > be
> > > accepted here. Its
> > > like saying "only whites need apply".
> > >
> > > I think such attitudes should not encouraged by
> > the
> > > design community in
> > > India.
> > >
> > > ASOK
> > >
> > >
> > > >From: "Arvind Lodaya" <emailarvind@...>
> > > >Reply-To: designindia@...
> > > >To: <designindia@...>
> > > >Subject: [designindia] "male fabric"
> designer!!1
> > > >Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 08:31:24 +0530
> > > >
> > > >This is how Pradyumna's post showed up in my
> > mailbox,
> > > and I think it is
> > > >deliciously ironic!
> > > >BTW: What exactly is a "male fabric" and how
> does
> > it
> > > differ from a "female
> > > >fabric"?
> > > >   Message: 4
> > > >      Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 11:41:49 +0530
> (IST)
> > > >      From: "Pradyumna Vyas"
> <pradyumna@...>
> > > >   Subject: Requirement of a Male Fabric
> Designer
> > > >
> > > >   [This message is not in displayable format]
> > >
> > >
> >
>
_________________________________________________________________
> > > FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar -
> > get it
> > > now!
> > >
> >
>
http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Send instant messages to your online friends
> > http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
> >
>
> Press Enter to Exit. --Computer 'help' message
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
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> dates.
> http://personals.yahoo.com
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>
>
>
>
>
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>
>     designindia-unsubscribe@...
>
>
>
>
>
>

National Institute of Design
New Media Dept.
Ahmedabad, India

__________________________________________________
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I have to add I too was shocked to see the stipulation
for a male- what possible relevance a person's sex
would have for the job is beyond me. Are they
expecting the person to work in some hazardous
situation where a 'delicate' female would not survive?
Or is there some serious heavy lifting involved?

Here in the US, there would be a line of gleeful
lawyers outside the door of the organization before
you could utter the word 'lawsuit'. Somebody needs to
inform these people that such double standards, if not
passé, definitely deserve to be.

Deepa

Deepa Rathnam Nirmal
CD, NID, 1989-95
SVP, Creative Services, Visum
St. Paul, MN, USA

--- Prachi <imprachi@...> wrote:
> As Asok pointed out, being a 'female' textile
> designer
> suddenly sounds like an issue. I'm surprised that
> such a
> bias still exists amongst us so-called
> aducated/urban
> societies. And ironically that too in a design area
> with
> the highest women to men ratio.
>
> Prachi Mishra
> NID,TD
> 2004
> freelancer
> New Delhi
>
>
> --- Asok George <asokaag@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Asok Abraham George
> > Design Lead
> > Volvo Truck Corporation
> > Gothenburg Sweden
> >
> >
> > Perhaps I've been living in Sweden for too
> > long...........
> >
> > But posting for a job specifing gender would never
> be
> > accepted here. Its
> > like saying "only whites need apply".
> >
> > I think such attitudes should not encouraged by
> the
> > design community in
> > India.
> >
> > ASOK
> >
> >
> > >From: "Arvind Lodaya" <emailarvind@...>
> > >Reply-To: designindia@...
> > >To: <designindia@...>
> > >Subject: [designindia] "male fabric" designer!!1
> > >Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 08:31:24 +0530
> > >
> > >This is how Pradyumna's post showed up in my
> mailbox,
> > and I think it is
> > >deliciously ironic!
> > >BTW: What exactly is a "male fabric" and how does
> it
> > differ from a "female
> > >fabric"?
> > >   Message: 4
> > >      Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 11:41:49 +0530 (IST)
> > >      From: "Pradyumna Vyas" <pradyumna@...>
> > >   Subject: Requirement of a Male Fabric Designer
> > >
> > >   [This message is not in displayable format]
> >
> >
>
_________________________________________________________________
> > FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar -
> get it
> > now!
> >
>
http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/
> >
> >
>
> Send instant messages to your online friends
> http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
>

Press Enter to Exit. --Computer 'help' message




__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Personals - Better first dates. More second dates.
http://personals.yahoo.com

here is our own black list.
http://in.groups.yahoo.com/group/designindia/database?
method=reportRows&tbl=4

On IPR issues or on issues of non payment, i dont think this group
can do anything more than make everyone aware of problem clients and
perhaps support with ideas, contacts.

Do put your offenders on the list. It is possible that another
designer may have a very good experience with the same client. But
this list could be useful...if you are working or about to start
working with a black listed client, you may want to call up the
earlier designer and have a chat.

It is also possible that you may know the blacklisted client well
enough to help the earlier designer...

In any case do put the names...i think talking generics sounds to
philosophical and sometimes not real.

sudhir
elephant design

As Asok pointed out, being a 'female' textile designer
suddenly sounds like an issue. I'm surprised that such a
bias still exists amongst us so-called aducated/urban
societies. And ironically that too in a design area with
the highest women to men ratio.

Prachi Mishra
NID,TD
2004
freelancer
New Delhi


--- Asok George <asokaag@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Asok Abraham George
> Design Lead
> Volvo Truck Corporation
> Gothenburg Sweden
>
>
> Perhaps I've been living in Sweden for too
> long...........
>
> But posting for a job specifing gender would never be
> accepted here. Its
> like saying "only whites need apply".
>
> I think such attitudes should not encouraged by the
> design community in
> India.
>
> ASOK
>
>
> >From: "Arvind Lodaya" <emailarvind@...>
> >Reply-To: designindia@...
> >To: <designindia@...>
> >Subject: [designindia] "male fabric" designer!!1
> >Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 08:31:24 +0530
> >
> >This is how Pradyumna's post showed up in my mailbox,
> and I think it is
> >deliciously ironic!
> >BTW: What exactly is a "male fabric" and how does it
> differ from a "female
> >fabric"?
> >   Message: 4
> >      Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 11:41:49 +0530 (IST)
> >      From: "Pradyumna Vyas" <pradyumna@...>
> >   Subject: Requirement of a Male Fabric Designer
> >
> >   [This message is not in displayable format]
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
> FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar - get it
> now!
>
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>

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

Hemant, Here is Sumit's previous post.
Sridhar Dhulipala

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Sumit Dey <anotherdey@...>
Date: Dec 31, 2004 5:42 PM
Subject: [designindia] Online Alumni Directory
To: designindia@...



Hi All,

Following link will direct you to a small tool that would help this
community to communicate better... an Online Alumni Directory with
smart search that can fetch you a result when you are not too sure of
a name or surname spelling. E.g. my name is often spelled as Sumit,
Sumeet, Sumith!!!

http://i.1asphost.com/sdey/alumni/

To login, use your name/surname (as mentioned in NID's
certificate)

Username: name[dot]surname[underscore]gradYear (e.g sumit.dey_1993,
no caps)
Password: gradYear  (e.g. 1993)


This is my personal project that's been hosted on a free server,
hence if you face any problem please inform me(anotherdey@yahoo[dot]
com). The database currently includes all designers who have
graduated till 2003, i.e total 966 Alumni (Name, Discipline and Year
of Graduation).

Please treat this as a prototype only and would be glad to have your
comments on further improvements and directions. Works fine with IE
5.0+ and Netscape 7.2(Windows) but not tested on Mac.

Wishing you all a Happy and Prosperous New Year.

Hope the New Year brings this Community more closer.

Regards
Sumit











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I had raised these issues a long time back.  and i
was told   to let it be.

anyway  My friend Sumit day has designed an excellent
site which dose the same thing in a very intutive
manner. Sumit if you read this mail please send the
link again ( i think you  did post it some time back )

  I would once again (IMHO)say That there needs to be a
monitoring body to check the external communication
material  for its Quality.

They can start with having a coroprate ID Manual.

I hope peopel will take this positively

ALL THE BEST

Hemant






--- Sharad Solanki <Sharad.Solanki@...> wrote:
> Siddharth,
>
> The interface of the register application is
> pathetically designed (sorry for such strong
> comments) but its irony that so many SUID, New Media
> people gets out of Institute and they could never
> see very small usability problems like:
>
> -          The search is case sensitive - like u
> will never get me if u search for 'sharad' as my
> name is registered as 'Sharad'. I won't comment that
> why a user needs to select checkbox when he has
> already typed in the text field.
>
> -          The login button doesn't have affordance
> of button
>
> -          Changing navigation on top which
> increases the cognitive load.
>
> -          The menu item is center aligned leaving
> aside the text being center align.
>
> -          ..... I can go on and on
>
> -          ...... Neither would I comment on the NID
> site itself. I think looking at models like RCA, CMU
> site could give better introspect to the
> implementers about how to design institute site
> should be.
>
> I had sent comment to the webmaster long time back
> but this seems to be one of those unimportant things
> in life.
>
> Let's hope someday somebody could take a note of it
> and fix it.
>
>
>
> Sharad
>
>
>
>
>
>   _____
>
> From: siddharth Dash
> [mailto:siddharth_dash@...]
> Sent: Friday, April 01, 2005 1:29 PM
> To: designindia@...
> Subject: Re: [designindia] Fw: Alumni registration
> at NID online directory
>
>
>
> Hi all
>
> I have tried several times (not less than three
> times)
> to register myself.  Till date I have not received
> any
> confirmation in my mail ID.
>
> I suppose NID site has a better engine to handle
> such
> registrations (at least better than irctc).
>
> Can someone help me (persons responsible at NID
> should
> respond specifically) to register. What's going
> wrong?
>
> Let's talk about design for 'usability' right here.
>
> Siddharth Dash
> AEP Product Design 1992
> Mumbai
>
>
> --- Manish Joshi <manish@...> wrote:
> > Hi all
> > I am forwarding a mail from NID requesting the
> > alumni to register
> > themselves at the NID website
> >
> > Forwarded message attached-
> > ***********************************
> > Hi!
> >
> > This is webmaster from NID.  As you have
> registered
> > on to graduate
> > directory
> >
>
(<http://www.nid.edu/graduates>www.nid.edu/graduates),
> > kindly ask
> > your NID graduate friends to register and update
> > their profiles.  So far
> > 1060 students have been graduated from NID but
> only
> > 150 of them registered
> > and updated their profiles.  Therefore, I request
> > you to spread this
> > message among your NID graduate friends to update
> > their profiles as early
> > as possible.
> >
> > Thank you!
> >
> >   Regards
> > webmaster
> >
>
>
________________________________________________________________________
> Yahoo! India Matrimony: Find your life partner
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>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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