SSP&A is excited to be able to host the following course in Bethesda,
Maryland (USA) this September, 2008:

"Building and Applying Analytical Element Models with Examples and Exercises
using Python"

Analytic element models are often refreshingly easy to understand, and
insightful. The best approach to learn the analytic element method is to
implement it in a simple computer program. This sounds daunting, but using
the Python language, it is possible for any hydrogeologist with a basic
understanding of the building blocks of a computer program. In this new
course, you will build your own analytic element model, and have a great
time doing it.

The course is taught by Dr. Mark Bakker. Mark has taught for 10 years at
American universities and now teaches at the Delft University of Technology
in The Netherlands. In addition, Mark is a consultant for Kiwa WR in Holland
and for WHPA in Bloomington, IN. Mark received his Ph.D. at the University
of Minnesota under the guidance of Prof. Otto Strack, the originator of the
analytic element method. Mark has written a number of analytic element
programs, of which TimML, the free, open-source analytic element model for
steady multi-aquifer flow is the most extensive. Mark has taught workshops
in Python for Hydrologists and used Python in his Computational Methods
class at the University of Georgia, where students were programming in
Python after a basic 2 hour lecture.

For further information on the course, please visit the following web page,
or write to matt@... :

  <http://www.sspa.com/Software/analytic.shtml>
http://www.sspa.com/Software/analytic.shtml

Registration will be limited to 12 attendees. A block of rooms has been
arranged at a nearby hotel for course participants - details are provided on
the web page.

Best wishes -

Matt Tonkin
S.S. Papadopulos & Assoc., Inc.
Tel:    301 718 8900 x258
email: matt@...

Hello Ghulam,

I built a small model based on the data you sent. I added a line to the
data points with an END.  If this is not in the trp file, feflow will
not read the file.  I used the file to Assign/Database/Data
Regionalization menu to assign initial heads.  It worked fine.

Is it possible that the coordinate system of your fem is different from
the coordinate system in your trp file?  If the points in the trp are
outside the fem due to a difference in coordinate systems, it cannot
find any points inside the model to work with resulting in the error
message you see.

*Pete



Ghulam mujtaba wrote:
>
> Hello Feflow Group,
>
> I am modeling a large area=6.0695E+9 (m2). When I am importing initial
> Hydraulic heads from a .trp file: , Feflow pops up with following Error:
> A Worse distribution occurs!
> Difference between maximun and minimum crossponds to 0.000000e+00.
> Impossible to draw.
>
> I am attaching the .trp file.
>
> Early response would be appriciated.
>
> Best Regards
> Mujtaba Ghulam
>
> 671668.19 3378632.00 134.71
> 671158.38 3376349.75 134.19
> 671396.44 3374017.50 133.82
> 671768.19 3372438.25 133.22
> 672501.88 3370512.00 132.38
> 673375.50 3368249.50 130.81
> 673980.38 3365928.75 130.85
> 674359.56 3363236.25 130.72
> 673417.19 3360788.50 129.42
> 672908.00 3357470.75 128.02
> 672278.63 3354077.50 125.75
> 672447.50 3349740.75 125.59
> 672321.13 3345508.75 125.30
> 672115.44 3342008.75 123.99
> 672451.63 3337447.50 122.64
> 672913.56 3334281.50 122.08
> 673587.75 3330860.00 121.58
> 674702.44 3327357.25 120.92
> 676206.06 3323185.00 119.22
> 676841.63 3319068.50 117.97
> 678039.94 3316013.25 116.94
> 677782.69 3313046.00 116.21
> 677173.19 3310530.25 115.65
> 675921.19 3307898.75 115.19
> 674502.81 3305628.00 114.92
> 673283.50 3302552.50 114.07
> 672090.88 3298752.75 112.82
> 670245.56 3295294.50 110.95
> 668792.25 3291702.00 110.27
> 667510.38 3288147.75 110.05
> 665799.06 3283956.75 109.21
> 664208.94 3279737.25 107.34
> 662338.50 3275618.50 107.34
> 661826.25 3271584.25 105.94
> 661523.75 3268658.00 105.29
> 661624.38 3265804.75 103.92
> 662190.00 3263030.00 102.29
> 662456.25 3260781.50 101.81
> 661994.31 3257724.00 101.06
> 660709.06 3254467.75 100.36
> 660053.88 3250393.50 99.21
> 658664.38 3247076.00 97.95
> 658334.31 3242565.00 97.86
> 656912.31 3238382.50 97.08
> 655473.06 3233023.00 94.79
> 654078.63 3227714.00 93.26
> 652365.19 3221708.25 93.27
> 653887.75 3219354.25 93.27
> 728924.50 3351580.00 116.86
> 726423.88 3353390.00 118.11
> 722392.50 3356421.00 119.59
> 719108.38 3358696.25 121.01
> 716254.13 3360663.50 122.25
> 710343.94 3364670.50 124.95
> 705235.13 3368176.50 127.22
> 702129.81 3370781.00 128.52
> 695718.75 3375088.25 130.66
> 692312.88 3378193.75 132.01
> 690309.44 3379295.50 132.52
> 689207.56 3379596.00 132.76
> 685701.50 3378794.75 133.03
> 679991.69 3378193.75 133.66
> 677086.69 3378193.75 134.01
> 673881.19 3378694.50 134.59
> 671727.31 3378673.00 134.72
> 653887.75 3219378.75 93.27
> 656999.38 3217752.75 93.27
> 658508.56 3217866.50 93.27
> 660269.81 3220585.50 93.27
> 662067.31 3222646.25 93.27
> 664226.13 3223903.25 93.27
> 667104.56 3223922.75 93.27
> 670844.94 3224404.25 93.27
> 672620.31 3226554.50 93.26
> 672967.56 3230326.25 93.27
> 674709.19 3232465.50 93.47
> 677691.31 3231345.25 93.31
> 681037.19 3232023.00 93.58
> 684716.19 3234644.00 94.74
> 688235.69 3237219.75 95.78
> 689655.31 3239801.25 97.15
> 691220.25 3243035.50 98.21
> 693933.69 3244821.50 98.48
> 696303.56 3247426.00 100.36
> 698245.56 3250605.75 103.66
> 698608.63 3254466.75 102.76
> 698116.50 3258221.75 102.83
> 697527.44 3260817.00 103.19
> 696562.88 3263246.50 103.44
> 696110.13 3265879.00 103.94
> 697512.38 3268867.25 104.82
> 697854.31 3271948.50 105.04
> 698572.00 3275496.50 105.34
> 698825.25 3278400.00 105.91
> 699750.25 3280655.00 106.27
> 702796.63 3281050.75 105.78
> 706569.94 3279978.50 105.88
> 708447.50 3282656.50 106.00
> 709165.38 3285887.25 106.23
> 710223.81 3290682.25 107.89
> 712160.81 3293632.00 108.44
> 713292.75 3296848.50 108.59
> 713646.94 3300401.00 108.81
> 713701.81 3304054.25 109.23
> 714051.81 3307648.50 109.70
> 715294.75 3310947.75 109.77
> 716560.25 3314380.75 109.97
> 715603.13 3317592.75 111.01
> 714843.63 3320611.25 111.93
> 717733.44 3323496.50 112.58
> 720126.50 3325691.75 112.93
> 720517.50 3328347.00 113.28
> 720646.75 3331729.50 113.51
> 722243.88 3334541.50 113.75
> 723928.19 3336690.75 114.31
> 725846.75 3339037.50 114.72
> 727286.50 3341209.50 115.22
> 728009.13 3344209.75 115.87
> 728392.25 3347703.50 116.53
> 729339.31 3351222.75 116.83

Hello Feflow Group,

I am modeling a large area=6.0695E+9 (m2). When I am importing initial Hydraulic
heads from a .trp file: , Feflow pops up with following Error:
A Worse distribution occurs!
Difference between maximun and minimum crossponds to 0.000000e+00.
Impossible to draw.

I am attaching the .trp file.

Early response would be appriciated.

Best Regards
Mujtaba Ghulam


671668.19 3378632.00 134.71
671158.38 3376349.75 134.19
671396.44 3374017.50 133.82
671768.19 3372438.25 133.22
672501.88 3370512.00 132.38
673375.50 3368249.50 130.81
673980.38 3365928.75 130.85
674359.56 3363236.25 130.72
673417.19 3360788.50 129.42
672908.00 3357470.75 128.02
672278.63 3354077.50 125.75
672447.50 3349740.75 125.59
672321.13 3345508.75 125.30
672115.44 3342008.75 123.99
672451.63 3337447.50 122.64
672913.56 3334281.50 122.08
673587.75 3330860.00 121.58
674702.44 3327357.25 120.92
676206.06 3323185.00 119.22
676841.63 3319068.50 117.97
678039.94 3316013.25 116.94
677782.69 3313046.00 116.21
677173.19 3310530.25 115.65
675921.19 3307898.75 115.19
674502.81 3305628.00 114.92
673283.50 3302552.50 114.07
672090.88 3298752.75 112.82
670245.56 3295294.50 110.95
668792.25 3291702.00 110.27
667510.38 3288147.75 110.05
665799.06 3283956.75 109.21
664208.94 3279737.25 107.34
662338.50 3275618.50 107.34
661826.25 3271584.25 105.94
661523.75 3268658.00 105.29
661624.38 3265804.75 103.92
662190.00 3263030.00 102.29
662456.25 3260781.50 101.81
661994.31 3257724.00 101.06
660709.06 3254467.75 100.36
660053.88 3250393.50 99.21
658664.38 3247076.00 97.95
658334.31 3242565.00 97.86
656912.31 3238382.50 97.08
655473.06 3233023.00 94.79
654078.63 3227714.00 93.26
652365.19 3221708.25 93.27
653887.75 3219354.25 93.27
728924.50 3351580.00 116.86
726423.88 3353390.00 118.11
722392.50 3356421.00 119.59
719108.38 3358696.25 121.01
716254.13 3360663.50 122.25
710343.94 3364670.50 124.95
705235.13 3368176.50 127.22
702129.81 3370781.00 128.52
695718.75 3375088.25 130.66
692312.88 3378193.75 132.01
690309.44 3379295.50 132.52
689207.56 3379596.00 132.76
685701.50 3378794.75 133.03
679991.69 3378193.75 133.66
677086.69 3378193.75 134.01
673881.19 3378694.50 134.59
671727.31 3378673.00 134.72
653887.75 3219378.75 93.27
656999.38 3217752.75 93.27
658508.56 3217866.50 93.27
660269.81 3220585.50 93.27
662067.31 3222646.25 93.27
664226.13 3223903.25 93.27
667104.56 3223922.75 93.27
670844.94 3224404.25 93.27
672620.31 3226554.50 93.26
672967.56 3230326.25 93.27
674709.19 3232465.50 93.47
677691.31 3231345.25 93.31
681037.19 3232023.00 93.58
684716.19 3234644.00 94.74
688235.69 3237219.75 95.78
689655.31 3239801.25 97.15
691220.25 3243035.50 98.21
693933.69 3244821.50 98.48
696303.56 3247426.00 100.36
698245.56 3250605.75 103.66
698608.63 3254466.75 102.76
698116.50 3258221.75 102.83
697527.44 3260817.00 103.19
696562.88 3263246.50 103.44
696110.13 3265879.00 103.94
697512.38 3268867.25 104.82
697854.31 3271948.50 105.04
698572.00 3275496.50 105.34
698825.25 3278400.00 105.91
699750.25 3280655.00 106.27
702796.63 3281050.75 105.78
706569.94 3279978.50 105.88
708447.50 3282656.50 106.00
709165.38 3285887.25 106.23
710223.81 3290682.25 107.89
712160.81 3293632.00 108.44
713292.75 3296848.50 108.59
713646.94 3300401.00 108.81
713701.81 3304054.25 109.23
714051.81 3307648.50 109.70
715294.75 3310947.75 109.77
716560.25 3314380.75 109.97
715603.13 3317592.75 111.01
714843.63 3320611.25 111.93
717733.44 3323496.50 112.58
720126.50 3325691.75 112.93
720517.50 3328347.00 113.28
720646.75 3331729.50 113.51
722243.88 3334541.50 113.75
723928.19 3336690.75 114.31
725846.75 3339037.50 114.72
727286.50 3341209.50 115.22
728009.13 3344209.75 115.87
728392.25 3347703.50 116.53
729339.31 3351222.75 116.83

Thanks for your response Peter.

We have had no success with the MODFLOW Lake package - it just seems
to create numerical instability.

Regards

Brian

--- In feflow@..., Pete Sinton <psinton@...> wrote:
>
> I've modeled underground voids and lakes in FEFLOW using the method
you
> describe.  I know of no better approach in FEFLOW.  There are
modules
> for MODFLOW that could be adapted using the IFM.
>
> These references may useful:
>
> Anderson, M.P., R.J. Hunt, J.T. Krohelski, and K. Chung. 2002.
Using
> high hydraulic conductivity nodes to simulate seepage lakes. Ground
> Water 40, no. 2: 119-124.
>
> Cheng, X., and M.P. Anderson. 1993. Numerical simulation of ground-
water
> interaction with lakes allowing for fluctuating lake levels. Ground
> Water 31, no. 6: 929-933.
>
> The large-K/Sy=1 approach seems to work as well as the fancy lake
> packages developed for MODFLOW and other models.
>
> Pete
>
> bbarnett40 wrote:
> >
> > Has anyone had experience in using FEFLOW to calculate water
levels in
> > surface water bodies?
> >
> > Usually surface water bodies are included in groundwater models
as head
> > dependent boundary conditions. In other words the water levels in
lakes
> > or ponds are specified in the model input. However in many
instances
> > it would be useful to use the model to caluclate the water levels
in
> > the lake, pond or void. In the past we have addressed this
problem by
> > including the size and shape of void in the model grid structure
and
> > defined hydraulic parameters representative of a surface water
body (ie
> > extremely high hydraulic conductivity, storage of 1.0 and recharge
> > defined as the excess of rainfall over evaporation) to the volume
of
> > the void.
> >
> > Is there a more sophisticated solution available in FEFLOW?
> >
> > Cheers
>

I've modeled underground voids and lakes in FEFLOW using the method you
describe.  I know of no better approach in FEFLOW.  There are modules
for MODFLOW that could be adapted using the IFM.

These references may useful:

Anderson, M.P., R.J. Hunt, J.T. Krohelski, and K. Chung. 2002. Using
high hydraulic conductivity nodes to simulate seepage lakes. Ground
Water 40, no. 2: 119-124.

Cheng, X., and M.P. Anderson. 1993. Numerical simulation of ground-water
interaction with lakes allowing for fluctuating lake levels. Ground
Water 31, no. 6: 929-933.

The large-K/Sy=1 approach seems to work as well as the fancy lake
packages developed for MODFLOW and other models.

Pete

bbarnett40 wrote:
>
> Has anyone had experience in using FEFLOW to calculate water levels in
> surface water bodies?
>
> Usually surface water bodies are included in groundwater models as head
> dependent boundary conditions. In other words the water levels in lakes
> or ponds are specified in the model input. However in many instances
> it would be useful to use the model to caluclate the water levels in
> the lake, pond or void. In the past we have addressed this problem by
> including the size and shape of void in the model grid structure and
> defined hydraulic parameters representative of a surface water body (ie
> extremely high hydraulic conductivity, storage of 1.0 and recharge
> defined as the excess of rainfall over evaporation) to the volume of
> the void.
>
> Is there a more sophisticated solution available in FEFLOW?
>
> Cheers

Has anyone had experience in using FEFLOW to calculate water levels in
surface water bodies?

Usually surface water bodies are included in groundwater models as head
dependent boundary conditions. In other words the water levels in lakes
or ponds are specified in the model input.  However in many instances
it would be useful to use the model to caluclate the water levels in
the lake, pond or void. In the past we have addressed this problem by
including the size and shape of void in the model grid structure and
defined hydraulic parameters representative of a surface water body (ie
extremely high hydraulic conductivity, storage of 1.0 and recharge
defined as the excess of rainfall over evaporation) to the volume of
the void.

Is there a more sophisticated solution available in FEFLOW?

Cheers

Shaun/Brian:

Thermal conductivity of 2.10 W/mC is approriate for alluvial material.  For
consolidated material such as carbonate rock (and crystalline material), it is
much higher (about 5W/mC).

Ok, so I think you have an open-loop system rather than a closed loop in which
heat exchange is through the pipes.  Yes, in that case FEFLOW and pretty much
any other model such as MODFLOW/MT3D will work.

Let me know if you need any more help.  I am preparing for conducting
non-isothermal flow and transport simulations at the Nevada Test Site.

Best wishes,

Tiraz Birdie



   ----- Original Message -----
   From: bbarnett40
   To: feflow@...
   Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 8:39 PM
   Subject: [feflow] Re: geothermal model


   Shaun

   Thermal conductivity of saturated aquifer is typically 2.10 W/mC and
   thermal heat capacity of rock grains about 1000 J/kgC.

   Cheers

   Brian

   --- In feflow@..., Shaun Glorie <shaunglorie@...> wrote:
   >
   > hey tiraz
   >
   > i don't know what you mean by loop? we will be be abstracting the
   water and pumping it back in, with the added heat over a 250m area.
   we want to know flows and heat distribution over time. my main
   concern is with parameters such as heat capacity and conductivity.
   i'm having some trouble finding info on these parameters.
   >
   >
   >
   > --- On Mon, 16/6/08, Tiraz Birdie <tbirdie@...> wrote:
   >
   > From: Tiraz Birdie <tbirdie@...>
   > Subject: Re: [feflow] geothermal model
   > To: feflow@...
   > Date: Monday, 16 June, 2008, 3:10 PM
   >
   > Hi Shaun:
   >
   > Will you be using FEFLOW for modeling the subsurface medium or
   both, the subsurface and the loops ?
   >
   > Tiraz Birdie
   >
   > ----- Original Message -----
   > From: shaunglorie
   > To: feflow@yahoogroups. co.in
   > Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 1:10 AM
   > Subject: [feflow] geothermal model
   >
   > Hey everyone
   >
   > Does any one have any papers of models that use feflow to model heat
   > transport from the use of geothermal energy. In my case groundwater
   > will be used to cool residential and commercial buildings. Any
   > information would be helpful
   >
   > Thanks
   > Shaun

Shaun

Thermal conductivity of saturated aquifer is typically 2.10 W/mC and
thermal heat capacity of rock grains about 1000 J/kgC.

Cheers

Brian

--- In feflow@..., Shaun Glorie <shaunglorie@...> wrote:
>
> hey tiraz
>
> i don't know what you mean by loop? we will be be abstracting the
water and pumping it back in, with the added heat over a 250m area.
we want to know flows and heat distribution over time. my main
concern is with parameters such as heat capacity and conductivity.
i'm having some trouble finding info on these parameters.
>
>
>
> --- On Mon, 16/6/08, Tiraz Birdie <tbirdie@...> wrote:
>
> From: Tiraz Birdie <tbirdie@...>
> Subject: Re: [feflow] geothermal model
> To: feflow@...
> Date: Monday, 16 June, 2008, 3:10 PM
>
> Hi Shaun:
>
> Will you be using FEFLOW for modeling the subsurface medium or
both, the subsurface and the loops ?
>
> Tiraz Birdie
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: shaunglorie
> To: feflow@yahoogroups. co.in
> Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 1:10 AM
> Subject: [feflow] geothermal model
>
> Hey everyone
>
> Does any one have any papers of models that use feflow to model heat
> transport from the use of geothermal energy. In my case groundwater
> will be used to cool residential and commercial buildings. Any
> information would be helpful
>
> Thanks
> Shaun
>

hey tiraz

i don't know what you mean by loop? we will be be abstracting the water and
pumping it back in, with the added heat over a 250m area. we want to know flows
and heat distribution over time. my main concern is with parameters such as heat
capacity and conductivity. i'm having some trouble finding info on these
parameters.



--- On Mon, 16/6/08, Tiraz Birdie <tbirdie@...> wrote:

From: Tiraz Birdie <tbirdie@...>
Subject: Re: [feflow] geothermal model
To: feflow@...
Date: Monday, 16 June, 2008, 3:10 PM

Hi Shaun:

Will you be using FEFLOW for modeling the subsurface medium or both, the
subsurface and the loops ?

Tiraz Birdie

----- Original Message -----
From: shaunglorie
To: feflow@yahoogroups. co.in
Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 1:10 AM
Subject: [feflow] geothermal model

Hey everyone

Does any one have any papers of models that use feflow to model heat
transport from the use of geothermal energy. In my case groundwater
will be used to cool residential and commercial buildings. Any
information would be helpful

Thanks
Shaun

Hi Shaun:

Will you be using FEFLOW for modeling the subsurface medium or both, the
subsurface and the loops ?

Tiraz Birdie




   ----- Original Message -----
   From: shaunglorie
   To: feflow@...
   Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 1:10 AM
   Subject: [feflow] geothermal model


   Hey everyone

   Does any one have any papers of models that use feflow to model heat
   transport from the use of geothermal energy. In my case groundwater
   will be used to cool residential and commercial buildings. Any
   information would be helpful

   Thanks
   Shaun

Hey everyone

Does any one have any papers of models that use feflow to model heat
transport from the use of geothermal energy. In my case groundwater
will be used to cool residential and commercial buildings. Any
information would be helpful

Thanks
Shaun

SSP&A is very excited to be able to host the following course in Bethesda,
Maryland (USA) this September, 2008:

"Building and Applying Analytical Element Models with Examples and Exercises
using Python"

Analytic element models are often refreshingly easy to understand and very
insightful. The best approach to learn the analytic element method is to
implement it in a simple computer program. This sounds daunting, but using
the Python language, it is possible for any hydrogeologist with a basic
understanding of the building blocks of a computer program. In this new
course, you will build your own analytic element model, and have a great
time doing it!

The course is taught by Dr. Mark Bakker. Mark has taught for 10 years at
American universities and now teaches at the Delft University of Technology
in The Netherlands. In addition, Mark is a consultant for Kiwa WR in Holland
and for WHPA in Bloomington, IN. Mark received his Ph.D. at the University
of Minnesota under the guidance of Prof. Otto Strack, the originator of the
analytic element method. Mark has written a number of analytic element
programs, of which TimML, the free, open-source analytic element model for
steady multi-aquifer flow is the most extensive. Mark has taught workshops
in Python for Hydrologists and used Python in his Computational Methods
class at the University of Georgia, where students were programming in
Python after a basic 2 hour lecture.

For further information on the course, please visit the following web page,
or write to matt@... :

  <http://www.sspa.com/Software/analytic.shtml>
http://www.sspa.com/Software/analytic.shtml

Registration will be limited to 12 attendees. A block of rooms has been
arranged at a nearby hotel for course participants - details will be
provided on the web page soon.

Best wishes -

Matt Tonkin
S.S. Papadopulos & Assoc., Inc.
Tel:    301 718 8900 x258
email: matt@...

Good Day !!!

You are invited to join "Yahoo! Groups - archydro" (ArcGIS -
Geographical Information System). This group aims to provide a forum
for exchange of ideas and experiences regarding application of GIS in
Hydrology and Water Resources; and use of ArcGIS software (in
general) and Arc Hydro (in particular).

Geographical Information Systems (GIS) are used to display,
manipulate and analyse spatial (map) data. ArcGIS (produced by ESRI)
is an integrated collection of software products for building a
complete geographic information system (GIS). There are three ArcGIS
desktop applications - ArcCatalog, ArcMap, and ArcToolbox. ArcCatalog
is the application for managing your spatial data holdings, for
managing your database designs, and for recording and viewing
metadata. ArcMap is used for all mapping and editing tasks, as well
as for map-based analysis. ArcToolbox is used for data conversion and
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There are also server-based ArcGIS products, as well as ArcGIS
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Apologies for cross-postings.

Regards
Kumar

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Can you plz tell me the guide lines and conditions  to be considered while
defining the boundary conditions.

   thanks in advance
   s.hari

Maybe you already knew:

on WASY website there's a movie about setting ET dependent on depth to
groundwater.
You don't need to use the unsaturated module.
http://www.wasy.de/english/produkte/feflow/howto/video_evapotranspiration..htm

I haven't tried it yet, so I can't give you any suggest.

Giovanni Formentin


   ----- Original Message -----
   From: bbarnett40
   To: feflow@...
   Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 12:53 AM
   Subject: [feflow] Re: Evapotranspiration


   Hi Gio

   Thanks for the response.

   There are several options in FEFLOW to provide a flux of water from
   the water table. However to represent evapotranspiration in an
   appropriate manner we need to make the magnitude of the flux
   inversely dependent on water table depth ie the flux decreases as
   water table gets deeper.

   Brian

   --- In feflow@..., Giovanni <g.firmani@...> wrote:
   >
   > Why dont you try to use the recharge with a negative value?
   >
   > Gio
   >
   >
   > 2008/4/23, bbarnett40 <bbarnett@...>:
   >
   > > We are currently exploring methods of improving the
   representation of
   > > evapotranspiration in FEFLOW without having to use the
   unsaturated zone
   > > package. Has anyone considered this problem and are there any
   > > interface modules that others have developed to model
   > > evapotranspiration?
   >

Indeed there is no direct way in FEFLOW to do this, so you'd have to
define boundary conditions for flow and transport manually. If the
landuse change simulation is the main task in your project and you do
not have to consider groundwater flow very much in detail, an
integrated simulation system like MIKE SHE might be the more
appropriate choice.

Peter Schätzl
Product manager FEFLOW

You can now use arbitrary expressions for recharge calculation in
FEFLOW. On
http://www.wasy.de/english/produkte/feflow/howto/video_evapotranspiration.htm
you find an example for a depth-to-groundwater dependent ETP for some
different zones in the model area. There's no limit in complexity of
the equations used or in the number of the input parameters.

Good luck!
Peter Schätzl
Product manager FEFLOW

There is no such option.  You have to do this yourself, especially since
its a site-specific correlation.

There is no other web site I know of.

*Pete Sinton*

*Principal Hydrogeologist*

*AquaGeo**, Ltd.*




sreehari km wrote:
>
> hi,
>
> Is there any option to correlate the land use change and the pollutand
> distribution directly in feflow? rt now im doing a project on "study
> of landuse changes and their impact on ground water resources" so how
> can i incroprate the land use change in feflow modelling? plz suggest
> me some idea.
>
> and also,can anyone provide me some useful links for getting more
> information abt this software and application other than its orginal
> website.(www.wasy.com)

Hi Gio

Thanks for the response.

There are several options in FEFLOW to provide a flux of water from
the water table.  However to represent evapotranspiration in an
appropriate manner we need to make the magnitude of the flux
inversely dependent on water table depth ie the flux decreases as
water table gets deeper.

Brian




--- In feflow@..., Giovanni <g.firmani@...> wrote:
>
> Why dont you try to use the recharge with a negative value?
>
> Gio
>
>
> 2008/4/23, bbarnett40 <bbarnett@...>:
>
> > We are currently exploring methods of improving the
representation of
> > evapotranspiration in FEFLOW without having to use the
unsaturated zone
> > package.  Has anyone considered this problem and are there any
> > interface modules that others have developed to model
> > evapotranspiration?
>

hi,

              Is there any option  to correlate the land use change and the
pollutand distribution directly in feflow? rt now im doing a project on "study
of landuse changes and their impact on ground water resources" so how can i
incroprate the land use change in feflow modelling? plz suggest me some idea.

   and also,can anyone provide me some useful links for getting more information
abt this software and application other than its orginal website.(www.wasy.com)

Why dont you try to use the recharge with a negative value?

Gio


2008/4/23, bbarnett40 <bbarnett@...>:

> We are currently exploring methods of improving the representation of
> evapotranspiration in FEFLOW without having to use the unsaturated zone
> package.  Has anyone considered this problem and are there any
> interface modules that others have developed to model
> evapotranspiration?

We are currently exploring methods of improving the representation of
evapotranspiration in FEFLOW without having to use the unsaturated zone
package.  Has anyone considered this problem and are there any
interface modules that others have developed to model
evapotranspiration?

Dear all...

My name is Murugan doing PhD in Department of Geology, Anna
University, Chennai, India.
I want how to give data for Flow Data and Transport Data via Nodal
mode.. I have no idea please some body help me....

Best regards

Murugan.R

I've noticed that the time-varying parameters in the FEM file (under
MMLIST), at least some of them, are also in different units; K values
are in the 1e-4 m/s units rather than the m/d units of the MAT_I_FLOW
section of the FEM.

*Pete Sinton*



irixthirteen wrote:
>
> Hi Pejman & others,
>
> The most effective and efficient method for running successive models
> in FEFLOW is thorough the batch or command line mode. You'll need to
> familiarize yourself with the FEFLOW input file format and perhaps
> learn a scripting language such as PERL or C-Shell to substitute your
> input variables. Of course this is not trivial if your input is
> spatially dependent, but it can be done with some effort.
>
> For your sensitivity exercise, you can substitute a numerical
> parameter with a variable (ex. LongDiffParamater, KxxParam,
> DiffParam)and easily substitute these values, execute FEFLOW and
> synthesize your results from a DAR or DAC file. Please keep in mind
> that the input units in the interface and the values in the FEM file
> are not the same units. For example you'll need to convert the file
> units into meters and days. With a bit of grief and ingenuity, you'll
> be able to resolve your problem.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Kayyum Mansoor
> Livermore, USA
>
> --- In feflow@... <mailto:feflow%40yahoogroups.co.in>,
> pejman rasouli <pe_rasouli@...> wrote:
> >
> > Hello Everybody,
> >
> > My name is Pejman; I am doing my master thesis on geothermal
> modeling inTuebingen, Germany.
> > I appreciate it if somebody can help me.
> > I have to run many different geothermal scenarios and then compare
> the results; it means I have to run a single conceptual model with
> different gradients, heat flux, conductivities and dispersivities and etc.
> > I am looking for a way that I can run scenarios one after each
> other so that there would be not necessary to change parameters each
> time by hand. I don't know whether Interface Manager can help or I
> have to set up batch files.
> >
> > I will be very thankful if somebody in the group can help me. I
> also attached an example of my model.
> >
> > Many Thanks,
> > Pejman

Can also use PEST to automate certain tasks.  FEFLOW comes with version
4, which may be sufficient, or download newest version from
www.sspa.com.  PEST requires you use FEFLOW's command line (batch
processing) mode.

*Pete Sinton*


pejman rasouli wrote:
>
> Hello Everybody,
>
> My name is Pejman; I am doing my master thesis on geothermal modeling
> inTuebingen, Germany.
> I appreciate it if somebody can help me.
> I have to run many different geothermal scenarios and then compare the
> results; it means I have to run a single conceptual model with
> different gradients, heat flux, conductivities and dispersivities and etc.
> I am looking for a way that I can run scenarios one after each other
> so that there would be not necessary to change parameters each time by
> hand. I don't know whether Interface Manager can help or I have to set
> up batch files.
>
> I will be very thankful if somebody in the group can help me. I also
> attached an example of my model.
>
> Many Thanks,
> Pejman

Hi Pejman & others,

The most effective and efficient method for running successive models
in FEFLOW is thorough the batch or command line mode. You'll need to
familiarize yourself with the FEFLOW input file format and perhaps
learn a scripting language such as PERL or C-Shell to substitute your
input variables.  Of course this is not trivial if your input is
spatially dependent, but it can be done with some effort.

For your sensitivity exercise, you can substitute a numerical
parameter with a variable (ex. LongDiffParamater, KxxParam,
DiffParam)and easily substitute these values, execute FEFLOW and
synthesize your results from a DAR or DAC file.  Please keep in mind
that the input units in the interface and the values in the FEM file
are not the same units.  For example you'll need to convert the file
units into meters and days. With a bit of grief and ingenuity, you'll
be able to resolve your problem.

Hope this helps.

Kayyum Mansoor
Livermore, USA


--- In feflow@..., pejman rasouli <pe_rasouli@...> wrote:
>
> Hello Everybody,
>
>   My name is Pejman; I am doing my master thesis on geothermal
modeling inTuebingen, Germany.
>   I appreciate it if somebody can help me.
>   I have to run many different geothermal scenarios and then compare
the results; it means I have to run a single conceptual model with
different gradients, heat flux, conductivities and dispersivities and etc.
>   I am looking for a way that I can run scenarios one after each
other so that there would be not necessary to change parameters each
time by hand. I don't know whether Interface Manager can help or I
have to set up batch files.
>
>   I will be very thankful if somebody in the group can help me. I
also attached an example of my model.
>
>   Many Thanks,
>   Pejman

Dear Member,

Can you please refer me to any relevant literature (case
studies/papers/web resources) pertaining to unsaturated and saturated
groundwater flow modelling to study the impact of rainwater
harvesting structures and artificial recharge structures on
groundwater system.

My apologies for cross-postings.

Thanks & Regards
Kumar
================================================
C. P. KUMAR
Scientist 'E1'
National Institute of Hydrology
Jal Vigyan Bhawan
Roorkee - 247667 (Uttarakhand)
INDIA

Web Page : http://www.angelfire.com/nh/cpkumar/
================================================
Unfold the Goddess Within:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Shambhavi/
================================================

Shaun

Further to my earlier email - you should apply a flux constraint to the solute
boundary so that water entering the model has a specified salinity (as defined
by the boundary condition) and that leaving the model is at the calculated
salinity.  To do this you set a minimum of zero for the mass flux as the
constraint.

Brian

________________________________

From: feflow@... on behalf of shaunglorie
Sent: Thu 1/31/2008 6:59 PM
To: feflow@...
Subject: [feflow] Re: salt lake modelling



In the first instance we are trying to construct an idealized model.
The situation is we have a lake that is hyper saline and was formed
some time ago through evaporation. The groundwater flows towards the
lake and this prevents the salinity from moving far from the lake.
However we are looking at extracting groundwater from the region
adjacent to the lake and are interested in seeing what effect this
abstraction will have on the salt water interface.

The initial simplified model is a 3D block model looking at modelling
salt lake and two hydrological layers. These are a shale layer on top
of a sand aquifer. The extent of the model is 50km by 50km. the shale
layer is 150m thick(top) and sand is 50m thick. The salt lake was
modeled using a rectangular geometry 7.5km in width by 50km by 25m
depth.

At this stage we are not interested in any thermal flow. We have some
data on salinity gradients to calibrate the model. Our primary
interest is on the salinity gradients and their changes with
abstraction of groundwater. We are not modelling the evoporite
formations and we are considering the lake to be a constant source of
hypersaline water.

Any information on how to model and parameterize this type of problem
would be appreciated. We would especially appreciate receiving
similar examples.

Shaun

--- In feflow@... <mailto:feflow%40yahoogroups.co.in> ,
"hydromodeler" <hydromodeler@...>
wrote:
>
> Shaun,
>
> Some questions.
>
> Is it a rift basin and if YES, then are you concerned about the
> thermohaline flow? If you take out the heat, it becomes simpler.
> How have you conceptualized your problem in terms of 2-D or 3-D,
> cross-section, or what? What is the scale of the problem?
> Is this a scientific model where you'll be exploring model behavior
or
> are you looking to calibrate to heads or some other data?
> Do you have data on the salinity gradient?
>
> Is the top of you model flat or are you including advective forcing
> due to gravity, such as flow off of the flanks of a rift basin?
> Are you modeling the evaporite formation?
>
>
> --- In feflow@... <mailto:feflow%40yahoogroups.co.in> ,
"shaunglorie" <shaunglorie@> wrote:
> >
> > hey every one
> >
> > i was wondering if any one had any examples on how to model salt
lakes.
> > Preferably within Australia but not necessary. I am modeling an
aquifer
> > where the salt lake is an evaporation point and has become hyper
> > saline.
> >
> > Any information would be greatly appreciated.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Shaun
> >
>





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Shaun

You will need to run FEFLOW in solute transport mode that incorporates advection
and dispersion.  You will then need to set the density factor to a value that
accurately reflects density of the brines in the lake.  You should then set the
lake as a Type I flow boundary (ie specified head) and a Type I solute boundary
(ie constant salinity).

You are going to be disappointed with the operation of FEFLOW in this instance.

We have found that where you have sharp salinity gradients, as is the case here,
that your model will become unstable and you will get massive over-estimation
and under-estimation of salinity around the interface.  This problem is
associated with numerical dispersion and can only be solved by using an
extremely fine mesh.  In this regard there is a commonly used rule for cell size
based on the Peclet Number.  I think the rule effectively indicates that the
size of your mesh cells must be less than half the dispersion coefficient that
you are using.  In this type of model your dispersion coefficient should be less
than ten and hence your mesh size needs to be around 5m or smaller.  We have
found that this effectively precludes running a large three dimensional model as
you propose.  We have had success with running two dimensional models with very
small cells but this may not suit the geometry of your particular problem.

We have developed models of this nature in arid parts of Australia where
groundwater salinity can exceed that of seawater.  Generally we have been
interested in the interaction of this groundwater with rivers that carry fresh
water.

Good luck

Brian


________________________________

From: feflow@... on behalf of shaunglorie
Sent: Thu 1/31/2008 6:59 PM
To: feflow@...
Subject: [feflow] Re: salt lake modelling



In the first instance we are trying to construct an idealized model.
The situation is we have a lake that is hyper saline and was formed
some time ago through evaporation. The groundwater flows towards the
lake and this prevents the salinity from moving far from the lake.
However we are looking at extracting groundwater from the region
adjacent to the lake and are interested in seeing what effect this
abstraction will have on the salt water interface.

The initial simplified model is a 3D block model looking at modelling
salt lake and two hydrological layers. These are a shale layer on top
of a sand aquifer. The extent of the model is 50km by 50km. the shale
layer is 150m thick(top) and sand is 50m thick. The salt lake was
modeled using a rectangular geometry 7.5km in width by 50km by 25m
depth.

At this stage we are not interested in any thermal flow. We have some
data on salinity gradients to calibrate the model. Our primary
interest is on the salinity gradients and their changes with
abstraction of groundwater. We are not modelling the evoporite
formations and we are considering the lake to be a constant source of
hypersaline water.

Any information on how to model and parameterize this type of problem
would be appreciated. We would especially appreciate receiving
similar examples.

Shaun

--- In feflow@... <mailto:feflow%40yahoogroups.co.in> ,
"hydromodeler" <hydromodeler@...>
wrote:
>
> Shaun,
>
> Some questions.
>
> Is it a rift basin and if YES, then are you concerned about the
> thermohaline flow? If you take out the heat, it becomes simpler.
> How have you conceptualized your problem in terms of 2-D or 3-D,
> cross-section, or what? What is the scale of the problem?
> Is this a scientific model where you'll be exploring model behavior
or
> are you looking to calibrate to heads or some other data?
> Do you have data on the salinity gradient?
>
> Is the top of you model flat or are you including advective forcing
> due to gravity, such as flow off of the flanks of a rift basin?
> Are you modeling the evaporite formation?
>
>
> --- In feflow@... <mailto:feflow%40yahoogroups.co.in> ,
"shaunglorie" <shaunglorie@> wrote:
> >
> > hey every one
> >
> > i was wondering if any one had any examples on how to model salt
lakes.
> > Preferably within Australia but not necessary. I am modeling an
aquifer
> > where the salt lake is an evaporation point and has become hyper
> > saline.
> >
> > Any information would be greatly appreciated.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Shaun
> >
>





SKM is committed to working with its clients to deliver a sustainable future for
all. Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
Notice - This message contains confidential information intended only for the
exclusive use of the addressee named above. No confidentiality is waived or lost
by any mistaken transmission to you. If you have received this message in error
please delete the document and notify us immediately.
Any opinion, text, documentation or attachment received is valid as at the date
of issue only. The recipient is responsible for reviewing the status of the
transferred information and should advise us immediately upon receipt of any
discrepancy.
All email sent to SKM will be intercepted, screened and filtered by SKM or its
approved Service Providers.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]