Dear Zeashan,
Its up to you whatever you wish to identify as surrealism and that
would be your surrealism,you have to be bit of a rebel and an
antagonist to accepted traditions of society/literature etc.
While I was searching for more literature on surrealism in sf I came
across one absurdist sf campaign which entails fictions set in worlds
where we seem to be entirely on the mercy of incomprehensible systems.
.Such literary works were initiated in between 1950-1970 in
conjugation with the writings of new wave.
Conclusively absurdist sf can be seen as protest sf movement and
according to them the world should not remain absurd.
Looking absurd? isn't it?
Besides,some art sf work also contains surrealistic elements.
arvind





--- In indiansciencefiction@..., CHANDRA MOHAN NAUTIYAL
<cmnautiyal@...> wrote:
>
> No.
>
> CMN
>
> zeashan zaidi <zeashanzaidi@...> wrote:
> Can we include illusions into surrealism?
> For example
> 1. Earth is not flat but we see it flat.
> 2. Mirage
> 3. We see a star and feel that it is present but actually it is
too old.
> and many optical illusions.
>
> Arvind Mishra <arvind_drmishra@...> wrote:
> Good Humour! A realistic one Dr.Nautiayal ji.
>
> CHANDRA MOHAN NAUTIYAL <cmnautiyal@...> wrote:
> The following lines in my last post show that our view does have
overlap.
>
> ' In occasional cases, there may be surrealistic situations in
science fiction or (more likely in) fantasy.'
>
> Actually in such things, it would be nearly impossible to reach a
conclusion completely agreed by all in all details. That's what makes
discussion possible and interesting.
>
> However, it also reminds me of an anecdote about 25 year old. Two
professors had disagreement about some scienific issue (flux and
spectrum of solar cosmic ray, to be specific). One wrote a paper,
another one rejoinder and then a comment back. One day they met
again. He said so you have again written a comment. The other
professor said, differences are bound to be there, no problem. What's
important is that we both got several publications in the process!
>
> Such healthy, intellectual and animated discussion not only enrich
us, they also improve the 'TRP' of our chat room, isn't it?
>
> So charaiveti, charaiveti!
>
> CMN
>
>
> Arvind Mishra <arvind_drmishra@...> wrote:
> Yes dr. Nautiyal saahab I am getting your points.And in
contrast to our realistic fictions which appear before the audience
as real [even if on reels] one ,sf always has an unfamiliar tinge
,something very unbelievale,some sort of wonderment giving ample scope
for surrealism .Is not it so ?
> Come on we are nearing to a conclusion !
> arvind
> CHANDRA MOHAN NAUTIYAL <cmnautiyal@...> wrote:
> When I said 'seldom real', I meant they are not actual happenings
but created by the author using imagination. However, it's done in a
way that the rader would believe them and so get involved with the
characters and situations. This is true of all fictional writing.
There may some times be documentary-like or biographical writings
which are descriptions of real life happenings as truely as possible
without deliberate changes.
>
> In occasional cases, there may be surrealistic situations in
science fiction or (more likely in) fantasy.
>
> CMN
>
> "swapnil.bhartiya" <arnieswap@...> wrote:
> I would beg to differ Arvind ji. Not-real is different from
surreal.
> How would you support your statement that "science fiction are never
> never realistic in contemporary sense but surrealistic". How could it
> be surrealistic?
>
> Could you give some example?
>
> Fantasy and SF are different let's keep the two genres separate and
> talk only about SF.
>
> ~ swapnil
>
> --- In indiansciencefiction@..., Arvind Mishra
> <arvind_drmishra@> wrote:
> >
> > Yes Dr. Nautiyal,fictional situations in our social fictions are
> 'seldom real' but assumed to be realistic.Likewise the backgrounds in
> science fiction are never never realistic in contemporary sense but
> surrealistic and as you insist and I also tend to agree that
> surrealism finds even a wider canvass in fantasy.
> > arvind
> > CHANDRA MOHAN NAUTIYAL <cmnautiyal@> wrote:
>
> > All fiction are work of imagination. The characters and situations
> are seldom real but are realistic. In my opinion, SF is not
> surrealistic for the simple reason that we are constantly constrained
> by the logic of science. As I earlier wrote, even when we break a
> known law, it's with an explanation or apology. In surralistic, you
> let go of reason, it's like freely moving brush with loose string
> providing a weak control. The occasional liberty taken makes a story
> s- fiction and too much liberty makes it s- fantasy.
> >
> > CMN
> >
> > Arvind Mishra <arvind_drmishra@> wrote:
> > yes why not if only you try to listen!
> > sf [fic and fant both incorporated] is not 'realistic fiction' as
> realistic fiction is generally understood by its contents and the
> social backgrounds [past and present and never the future,save
> exceptions!] and is dissimilar to sf which usually depicts backgrounds
> and contents not familiar to us.
> > So sf is not a realistic but surrealistic literature!
> > Looks sweeping conclusion!!
> > ok please go ahead!
> > We are again heading towards a forbidden arena of knowledge ,but
> quite happily!
> > -arvind
> >
> > "swapnil.bhartiya" <arnieswap@> wrote: could you please
> share with us your finding -- other connections
> > between the two?
> >
> > ` swapnil
> >
> > -- In indiansciencefiction@..., "arvind mishra"
> > <drarvind3@> wrote:
> > >
> > > they exactly are,sf is a surrealistic literature! I have researched
> > it and
> > > have developed an understanding of my own in these days.thanks
to our
> > > profession and the way we are trained in scientific methodology.
> > > arvind
> > >
> > > On 30/08/2007, swapnil.bhartiya <arnieswap@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > That was not an statement, I was asking other members if those
were
> > > > examples of surrealism, or if there are other connections as well?
> > > >
> > > > :-)
> > > >
> > > > Over to you..
> > > >
> > > > ~ swapnil
> > > >
> > > > --- In
> >
>
indiansciencefiction@...<indiansciencefiction%40yahoogroups.co.in>\
,
> > > > Arvind Mishra
> > > > <arvind_drmishra@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > But you at least accept that surrealistic touch in sci fant?
> > > > > isn't it?
> > > > >
> > > > > "swapnil.bhartiya" <arnieswap@> wrote:
> > > > The moment you induce element of surrealism in SF it becomes
> Fantasy.
> > > > > Rather to me surrealism and science fiction are enemies to each
> > > > other.
> > > > > In ordinary fiction, there are so many thoughts going on in a
> > writer's
> > > > > mind and to represent them he need an element of abstract,
> where as
> > > > > science fiction deals with something else. In SF you cannt build
> > > > > abstract thoughts or if you can, one needs to be thinking on
> > > > > philosophical note. Here I would like to give example of
> space-time
> > > > > curve -- what else it is then surrealistic representation of
world
> > > > > around us?
> > > > >
> > > > > What else is tarvel through wormhole?
> > > > >
> > > > > Creatures in HG Well's Time Machine were surrealistic, aren't
> they?
> > > > > Moarlocks with big eyes....?
> > > > >
> > > > > So, we need to be very careful in bringing surrealism into SF.
> > > > >
> > > > > ~ swapnil
> > > > >
> > > > > ... --- In
> >
>
indiansciencefiction@...<indiansciencefiction%40yahoogroups.co.in>\
,
> > > > CHANDRA MOHAN
> > > > > NAUTIYAL <cmnautiyal@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In sci-fi we are constantly tesing things with science-
> razor. So
> > > > > it is, in general, controlled by reason except at one point
> or two
> > > > > where we take liberty but even that is explained in some way. In
> > > > > small parts there can be some surrelaistic descriptions, but
> more as
> > > > > exception than rule. This may add certain mystic touch.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > CMN
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Arvind Mishra <arvind_drmishra@> wrote:
> > > > > > Swapnil's opinion on the issue is very well thought of
> > > > > and emphatically presented.Now on the basis of discussions held
> > so far
> > > > > beginning with dear Reema's valuable contribution and
nourished by
> > > > > Dr.Nautaial,L D Kala Sahib and finally what Swapnil has said I
> have
> > > > > discerned the following-
> > > > > > Surrealism is definitely something which is not real,something
> > > > > more or something less than real.But whatever is less than real
> > > > > is again something which is away from reality.
> > > > > > In view of above if we think of realistic fiction we can
> very well
> > > > > notice that it depicts the so called realistic events which are
> > parts
> > > > > of our contemporary society. .They are played against the social
> > > > > backgrounds supposedly not different from our own and are
> > believed to
> > > > > be the mirror of our contemporary world or in some cases
even the
> > > > > events already occurred in the past.We generally take the
> realistic
> > > > > fiction's events as true ones and usually there is no reason to
> > > > > suppose that events described in the said realistic fiction
would
> > > > > have not taken place as described.
> > > > > > But it is not the case with surrealistic fiction where events
> > played
> > > > > against social backgrounds are neither from our existing and
> known
> > > > > world nor from known past/history but something different.
> > > > > > Now could we categorize science fiction and fantasy as a
surreal
> > > > > literature?
> > > > > > Yes,perhaps because both forms belong usually to unfamiliar
> > > > > scenes and backgrounds to us- with surreal backgrounds not
> > resembling
> > > > > our own.Set in future or very much different from our world
> which we
> > > > > are familiar with.
> > > > > > Hindi fiction writers have been known to sometimes
> exaggerate the
> > > > > real events even to that extent that it becomes surreal[ati
> > > > > yataarth] away from the exact truth-the kind of an example
> given by
> > > > > Dear Swapnil.
> > > > > > I do not know if my thesis holds some water.It is open to
> further
> > > > > discussion
> > > > > > arvind
> > > > > > CHANDRA MOHAN NAUTIYAL <cmnautiyal@> wrote:
> > > > > > There is a problem. Cornea has become a physical entity but
> > > > > hand's status is not clear. On one hand, it's in mind only;
on the
> > > > > other it was felt by others and it holds a cup.
> > > > > > cmn
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "swapnil.bhartiya" <arnieswap@> wrote:
> > > > > > Dear Nautiyal ji!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks a lot to the critical analysis. I will make changes
> in the
> > > > > > story as per your suggestions. Since I am turing from short
> > > > stories to
> > > > > > novel thus I am experimenting with details -- as you pointed
> > out in
> > > > > > the begining. I also wanted to build emotional bond
between the
> > > > two so
> > > > > > that readers could feel what Sarah goes through when she sees
> > > > jason in
> > > > > > so much pain.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Some of my stories have that storming begining where the first
> > para
> > > > > > will leave you revetted to your chair, and then I will
build the
> > > > thing
> > > > > > some will have different roller coster ride, smooth sailing
> in the
> > > > > > begining and then shoking ride.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So, i am doing lots of experiments and this was a part of
that.
> > > > But if
> > > > > > as a reader you feel it was not gripping in the begining I
will
> > > > > > re-consider, but then I was not that mature as a writer 7
> > years ago.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ans to Point 5: And where did the artifical materail go? YOu
> know
> > > > > > organic artifical material could be decomposed within the body
> > -- for
> > > > > > example threats for internal surgery.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ans to point #6: When it comes to why they cant see hand but
> eyes.
> > > > > > Hand was Jason's manifestation to himself. Whreas corneas took
> > > > > > severals years may be more than 10+ to grow.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I tried to keep conversation that way only -- they way we
> > discuss in
> > > > > > real life so you can say I have a bend toward
'yatharthwad' :-)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ~ swapnil
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In
> >
>
indiansciencefiction@...<indiansciencefiction%40yahoogroups.co.in>\
,
> > > > CHANDRA MOHAN NAUTIYAL
> > > > > > <cmnautiyal@> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Dear Swapnil jee,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I went through the story. Congrats. It's a wonderful
> story. Some
> > > > > > comments, however, because that's why we are discussing, not
> > just to
> > > > > > get appreciation.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 1. I sailed through the 'mild gust', and a bit not-so-
> capturing
> > > > > > begining but as the story progressed, it became
captivating and
> > > > > > remained so till the end. No mean achievement! I feel that the
> > > > > > begining could have been more interesting in written story.
> > Whatever
> > > > > > is written would be a very short screen time but describing
> takes
> > > > > > longer so the approach could have been slighly different.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 2. I found the conversations written naturally which very
> often
> > > > > > are the weak link.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 3. It develops well and carries well to the end. That you
> have
> > > > > > researched also shows.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 4. The idea, mindover matter, is interesting and to some
> limited
> > > > > > degree we do see it our lives. It's also statistically
> > demonstrated
> > > > > > by some groups that will matter in curing. here it's carried
> > farther
> > > > > > but that's what makes the story interesting.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 5. Even though I was carried with story smoothly but some
> points
> > > > > > remained uncomfortable. Mind may help in growth of cornea,
> > connecting
> > > > > > threads etc. but where did the artificial (plastic) sheet/
> > membrane
> > > > > > vanish? Growth in a living system alright, but losing matter?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 6. If cornea was visible (that's how doctors could take
> it), why
> > > > > > not hand?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 7. The story can be very good for ilming and if I were to
> make a
> > > > > > set of TV films, I would love to include it along with some
> > > > stories of
> > > > > > Arvind dway!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > COngrats again; it was absorbing. How I'd like you to
> contribute
> > > > > > to MAYA too!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > CMN
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > CHANDRA MOHAN NAUTIYAL <cmnautiyal@> wrote:
> > > > > > > Dear Swapil jee,
> > > > > > > Agreed, and shall be commenting for sure. I couldn't take a
> > print
> > > > > > out last weekend hence the delay. I wanted to read it
> > carefully and
> > > > > > with undivided attention which is not possible in office.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > CMN
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "swapnil.bhartiya" <arnieswap@> wrote:
> > > > > > > Still awaiting comments on my story ;-)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In
> >
>
indiansciencefiction@...<indiansciencefiction%40yahoogroups.co.in>\
,
> > > > CHANDRA MOHAN
> > > > NAUTIYAL
> > > > > > > <cmnautiyal@> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > According to Chamber's Dictionary, surrealism is "a
> > movement in
> > > > > > > French art and literature , from about 1919 onwards, that
> > aimed at
> > > > > > > drawing upon the subconcious and escaping the control of
> > reason and
> > > > > > > any preconceptions." Other dictionaries like Oxford, Random
> > House
> > > > > > > also define it similarly as 'expression of the sub- concious
> > > > through
> > > > > > > dreams etc.' and 'imagery or its juxtaposition'.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > From the little French I can recall from clases and a
> > sojourn in
> > > > > > > France tells me that 'sur' means 'on' or 'above'. 'Realism'
> > is the
> > > > > > > same as in English language. So surrelaism is something
> above or
> > > > > > > beyond realism of this world. Although usually constrained
> > by our
> > > > > > > mental shackles, our pre- conceived notions, we may
break free
> > > > > > > occasionally, forego reason and be guided by the inner self,
> > > > whatever
> > > > > > > that means. The thoughts or their manifestation (the
creation-
> > > > > > > painting, writing or...) in such a situation is surrealstic.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Unless, the philosphers would like to say that what is
> beyond
> > > > > > > senses is the real thing, surrealism shouldn't mean
> > > > 'atiyathathvaad'.
> > > > > > > I am not denying the fact of E-H dictionary saying it.
> Usually,
> > > > > > > yathaarth is used in the sense of reality on ground. The
> > word 'ati
> > > > > > > yatharthvaad' doesn't seem to convey what is originally
meant
> > > > by the
> > > > > > > word 'surrealism', the dictionary notwithstanding. May be
> > the term
> > > > > > > was coined, but is not necessarily reflecting the sense.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > CMN
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Arvind Mishra <arvind_drmishra@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > Thats very fine Nautiyal ji,would you then please stop to
> > > > > > > ponder what this 'realism' in surrealism is about!
> > > > > > > > And please be aware its literature not science in
which[the
> > > > latter]
> > > > > > > we are educated and trained to understand the definitions
> > and even
> > > > > > > try to define our own concepts.
> > > > > > > > I do not care much many Hindi dictionaries but the one
> which I
> > > > > > > adore is by Father Kaamil Bulcke which means 'ati yathaarth
> > vaad'
> > > > > > > for surrealism.
> > > > > > > > And I can not dare to simply shrug aside this great
> > Belgian Hindi
> > > > > > > Scholar.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > And also do you visualize any possible correlation in
> between
> > > > > > > surrealism and science fiction ,which is incidentally and
> > happily a
> > > > > > > genre of literature itself? Let us thrash out this
matter too
> > > > > > > the manner we have done earlier involving many abstract and
> > > > > > > other not so abstract ideas!
> > > > > > > > Other respected members are also invited to comment
please!
> > > > > > > > And where is dear Swapnil these days? Do we have to go
for a
> > > > habeas
> > > > > > > corpus for him in any Delhite Hazaari court?
> > > > > > > > Regards,
> > > > > > > > arvind
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > CHANDRA MOHAN NAUTIYAL <cmnautiyal@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > Reemajee is right and the dictionary in question wrong.
> > > > > > > Surrealism refers to the ill defined, not real, somewhat
> vague,
> > > > which
> > > > > > > is not result of concious logical mind. She has rightly
> > referred to
> > > > > > > surrealistic painting (started about 100 years ago in France
> > as a
> > > > > > > movement).
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > CMN
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Arvind Mishra <arvind_drmishra@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > Thanks Reema for your surreal description of the literary
> > > > > > > movement called surrealism.The way you explained it made it
> > really
> > > > > > > intelligible but why Hindi dictionaries the respectable
> ones too
> > > > > > > define it as ATI YATHARTHVAAD remains still an enigma to
me.We
> > > > shall
> > > > > > > resume our discussions when you are back to India.
> > > > > > > > We all wish you a very comfortable and safe flying.
> > > > > > > > arvind
> > > > > > > > Reema Sarwal <reema.sarwal@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > As you said Arvin ji, I am in an absolute chaos these
days,
> > > > > > > getting ready for the flight back home on Friday. A very
quick
> > > > > > > explanation: Surrealism aims at expressing the working
of the
> > > > > > > subconscious mind, so that a surrealist painting might not
> > make any
> > > > > > > logical sense. It was a movement which begain in 1920s, with
> > > > the base
> > > > > > > in paris and then spread. It was directly a result of the
> World
> > > > War I,
> > > > > > > when logic seemed to fail explaining all the suffering and
> pain.
> > > > > > > "Automatic writing" was one part, where you just sit with a
> > pen and
> > > > > > > notebook and start writing whatever comes to your head in
> > the same
> > > > > > > order without thinking about it -- the aim being to
> capture your
> > > > > > > mind's working, so that your intellectual and thoughts and
> daily
> > > > > > > chores like buying grocery could feature in the same line.
> > > > > > > > However, modern sense of the term is much more loose -- an
> > > > > > > American critic interpreted hindi movie songs as surrealist,
> > > > because u
> > > > > > > can't really change all those clothes or dance like that in
> > > > real life,
> > > > > > > but its a surrealistic representation of what the lovers are
> > > > feeling.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > hope this makes some sense -- i'm myself typing as
> rapidly as
> > > > > > > possible at the moment, without thinking!
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > will come back to the forum properly after returning to
> delhi.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > best wishes,
> > > > > > > > -r.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On 8/26/07, arvind mishra <arvind_drmishra@> wrote:
> > > > > > > Dear Friends,
> > > > > > > > Is it a sheer coincidence or some sort of intellectual web
> > length
> > > > > > > > sharing/ E.S.P.[extra sensory perception]amongst global
> > > > > intelligentsia
> > > > > > > > that a story which appears in the latest issue of TIME[PEN
> > > > > > > > PALS,AUG,27 PP 48]unveils an effort rarest of rare
kind that
> > > > seven
> > > > > > > > French writers team up with seven Americans to coauthor a
> > book of
> > > > > > > > playfully surreal[Not our Hindi sadial YAAR!]short story!
> > > > > > > > Incredible!How similar to what is going on our own forum
> as a
> > > > brain
> > > > > > > > child of friend Nautiyal ji, and nourished by we all-A
> > Mission To
> > > > > > Maya.
> > > > > > > > Reema ji its especially for your kind attention!Please
> > educate us
> > > > > > when
> > > > > > > > at leisure what this surrealism is about!Is it similar
> to 'ATI
> > > > > > > > YATHAARTHVAD' [extreme realism?]of Hindi literary
movement?
> > > > > Would you
> > > > > > > > please!!!
> > > > > > > > regards,
> > > > > > > > arvind
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > arvind mishra
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