CMN has asked, "If people really believe that it's Ram setu, immatrial of what
scientific study concludes, should we go ahead with it presuming that
environmental issues can be addressed? '
It is a hypothetical question. In any case how can we in thsi scientific age
disregard scientific conclusions or facts?? It is not desirable either.
There are many issues where science fails to give a definitive or convincing
answers. Many times so called scientific conclusions are found to be biased.
many a time, science gives wrong answers which are proven so later. 'Ether'
theory, Phlogistan theory etc are some examples. Even Einstein had given a wrong
answer by assuming the universe to be ' a steady stae' one.
The sides have to be critcally examined and pros and cons seen, and then a
balanced view needs to be taken.
As I had said man does not live by bread alone, there are more things in the
world than science can see, Horatio.

Vishwa Mohan Tiwari
________________________________> To: indiansciencefiction@...>
From: cmnautiyal@...> Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 05:35:54 +0100> Subject: RE:
[indiansciencefiction] Re: Ram Setu :the myth and reality !>> As usual, Tiwari
jee's made very relevant and accurate observations.> It has so much in common
with Bimal jee and myself also said.> A scientific study is a must. And I agree
that there is no need to rush for the dredging project. There is no pressing
urgency. I also agree that development has to be paid for in terms of ecology at
times but anything just because it damages ecology/ environment can't be termed
deveopment.> Then there is another issue. If people really believe that it's Ram
setu, immatrial of what scientific study concludes, should we go ahead with it
presuming that environmental issues can be addressed?> There may be scope for
sci- fi by rationalising the bridge-making in terms of technoloy as Tiwari jee
also indicated.> CMN> Vishwa Mohan Tiwari wrote:> There is sufficient interest
in the subject which shows that it is important to us SF buffs.> The most
important point that comes out is that more study needs to be done, apart from
publishing the findings of earlier studies. Why havent they been published so
far, and if publishe, then why have been neglefting them so far?> Obviuously,
the project is being rushed, why? The reasons are obvious, in a democracy where
national interests are less important than the party' interest, Nation suffers.>
What is the harm if the project is delayed till the important issues are sorted
out? We may lose few dollars for a few years!! Are we so poor?? Build the canal
or break the bridge after the facts and repercussions of the project are
understood properly.> Just because no major development work can be done without
damaging the ecology, it cannot be taken as a point supporting the major work.
More than enough damage has been done to our ecology, shouldnt we become more
careful now ? Can we afford to continue damaging our ecology till we are
destroyed? And then can we feel satisfied that species have been vanishing and
entering, so what if we are lost?> Yeas species have been vanishing, but not by
their own deeds. If human race vanishes because a huge astroid strikes the earth
then of course we have no choice, and future generatios, if any evolve, may say
the same. But canwe destroy or help in destroying the human race by our deeds,
so called deeds for so called development??> Man does not live by bread alone.
therefore economic considerations cannot be the dominant ones. Lwet us look at
the other areas like longterm effects on our eco system on the thorium that may
be washed away. on the impacts of tsunamies, on the cultural mindset of the
people of India, a country known for its noble cultural heritage, and probably
one with the most humane culture. Insultint Ram is almost insulting the ideals
that Ram stands for.> I believe that the feature that now we see is NATURAL. And
not the man made Ram Setu that was built many thousands of years ago.> To me
even if it is a natural feature, it is believed to be the site on which a bridge
was built to kill a Raksha like Ravana, who was devoid of many humane qualities
and represents consumerist culture in the worst sense.> So the war of Ram and
Ravan was a war for a humane life versus demonic life. The war has to continue.
The memory of Ram setu inspires us towards that war.> I do not like writing long
posts, but this is as short as I could make it. I find that I am not being
understood properly because of perhaps my brevity, so I have made this
exception.> Vishwa Mohan Tiwari> ________________________________> To:
indiansciencefiction@...> From: arvind_drmishra@...> Date:
Sat, 29 Sep 2007 02:47:35 +0000> Subject: [indiansciencefiction] Re: Ram Setu
:the myth and reality !>> No one appears to be interested in economics of
Ramsetu-[rs].O.K. we> could shift out attention to fictional part of rs.At the
outset why it> is called RS?> While antiquity of Ram Katha is any body's guess,I
have my own> observations on the issue.Valmiki wrote[rather compiled]his on own>
epic version of Ram Katha around 1000 BC.Definitely he would have> depended
largely on the popular sources of the story as it passed from> generations top
generations in Indian pathos.The first detailed> account of RS ,its survey
part,its construction involving floating> stones [?],and apprehensions that it
may not lost long is given in a> very lucid and descriptive manner.One has to
really read it to> appreciate the tale.Hanuman in the leadership of Jambvant
first> surveys the entire region to facilitate the passage of a huge army> ,Nal
a local craftsman does the needed engineering,while Angad another> prominent
protagonist shows hi apprehensions in no unclear terms that> comeback from from
the same very route may not be possible.And> Everyone now knows RAMA and his
whole jubilant army took an aerial> root to return after victory over Lanka.>
But why I am telling these oft repeated account everyone of you knows> very well
!Because I have to make a point -please do not look on the> legend in its
apparent sense but try to deduce the logical and> rational meanings hidden in
between the lines.> The recent studies in genography->
[https://www3.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/participate.html> ]reveal that
the first human entered India from Afria around 20 lakhs> years ago from west
coast in initially in Kerala and then spread other> parts of country.The
definite genetic footprints also indicate that> the same band of early humans
crossed the sea ridge what might have> been the same RS [though much later named
the same]and reached LANKA> and further far away even to Australia.The y
chromosome and mit dna> studies have confirmed this.> Again a powerful band of
same African early human appears to have> entered India through north a bit
later and established their> kingdom[!]in northern parts.Genography studies do
not just stop here> but further reveal that the same migratory band later
exterminate> males of already established southern people in a major>
combat/encounter leaving only females to be adopted by these> victorious
people.> Now it is time to do some guesswork!Is not it the saga of mythical>
Devaasur sangraam ?or Ram -Ravana yuddh ?or Aryaa-dravid combats?> My
hypothesis-The said event could be the the Ram-Ravan Yudhh and the> preexisting
Setu is utilized again of course after certain innovations> and rehabilitation
work to enable a whole army to cross over to reah> other side of the mighty
ocean.> It is the memory of the same event passed through generations as we>
know it today.> Its not all myth only, we have to apply a bit of our brain-the
human> brain which humanity often boasts about!> NAAMULAA LOKSHRUTI-pop-memories
are not altogether baseless.> I would like not only to know what you think about
all this,but also> to support me if you like the idea and think that it holds
some water.> How a siene communicator can be aloof on a matter of national
interest?> Your reticence on the issue may be interpreted in terms of a rotten>
lot of what Indian science communicators are about.> efiction@...,
"arvind mishra" wrote:>>>> Friends,>> Recent views so eloquently expressed by
Shri Bimal ji and CMN>> provides enough food for thought on the issue ,though
certain points>> need to be elaborated further in order to reach to an
intelligible>> conclusion.>> I do not think it is justified to compare Ram Setu
with>> Panama and Suez as they were dug through land corridors not like the>>
Ram Setu in which a massive dredging[some sort of yet another mythical>> ocean
churning-One more Samudra Manthan !] of sea ocean is>> envisaged.Panama and Suez
do not face heavy inundations which is an>> usual feature within the sea.It is
feared that a deep furrow in the>> sea bed in the form of Setusamudram canal if
built shall be completely>> on mercy of mighty waves bringing huge amounts of
sand per day.And>> the clearing of a vast amount of sand from the furrow may be
a very>> costly affair.It has rightly been apprehended by some wise people
that>> project shall not ruin the surroundings rather the environment shall>>
ruin the project itself.The fears of Tsunamis could also not be ruled>> out.
Wiping out a seizable coastal population and dumping enough sand>> to even close
down the canal once and forever.Mythological sources too>> reveal that sea
portion in question has been very turbulent since time>> immemorial.An army in
leadership of Ram is said to have waited for>> long to cross the turbulent
passage.>> Thus on economic considerations also the project needs a serious>>
appraisal.The maintenance,dredging costs for an estimated two million>> cubic
meters per year may render the project uneconomic.It may be very>> costly affair
and a counter productive effort to combat the full fore>> of nature-it may even
be impossible.>> Then what is the big deal? And that too on the cost of
hurting>> sentiments of millions people who contribute heavily to government's>>
revenue.>> Though I have not finished as yet you are please invited to express>>
your views on this segment of the discussion and oblige.>> Regards,>>
arvind>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --- In
indiansciencefiction@..., CHANDRA MOHAN NAUTIYAL>> wrote:>>>>>> It
doesn't happen very often, but I find that my views would echo>> what Vimal jee
has written.>>>>>> I doubt if any major developmental project has been
possible>> without disturbing the ecology. That's a price we pay. Any>>
artificial structure would hinder flow of water, air, humans or>> animals etc.
This would invariably mean affecting the components and>> their relationship.
Making a quantitative estimate is very- very>> dificlt. The simplistic picture
presented by activists or in the>> popular press, may be misleading. There are
many gaps in our>> knowledge including inter- dependence of these components
that>> prevents a clear image of future. In the case of linking rivers, for>>
instance, no one thought so much about the result of mixing water of>> diffrent
kinds on living beings. However, rhere is choice to stop the>> developmental
projects, carry them out with minimum cost to the>> environment or make up for
that damage in some other way (planting>> trees to make up for uprooted treed in
road- construction etc. for>> instance) . Another option is to weigh the pros
and cons and>>> then go ahead if there are more pros. But it's not easy to
weigh>> because to diferent people, things mean different.>>>>>> I am all for
preserving the heritageincluding the monuments and>> not just for the emotional
or sentimental reasons. They may hold>> clues to historical facts we have no
idea of , due to technological or>> other limitations. But at times, they may go
to ridiculous length.>> Take this: The dust in Ayodhya is what Bhagwan Ram
treaded on, so>> let's not walk there!>>>>>> Life has gone after more than 85
percent of life- forms were wiped>> off at the end of Permian. Even dinosaurs
appeared only after that!>> Then, at the end of Cretaceous, dinos were also
wiped off. Change is>> the only constant. Life evolves and adjustments go on.
Mankind is>> only a few million year old (in any form). Our fear is that
mankind>> may become the casuality. The fear is real. The process of evolution>>
(intellectual) and material development may have to start all over>> again.
That' s the real reason behind the scientists' fear.>> However, the activitists
have little knowledge of the real issues.>> That's what makes them vulnerable to
outside influence.>>>>>> There has been a trend especially over the last decade
or so to>> make a hue and cry over any major development peoject. This may be>>
due to the increased environment- awareness also. But, at times, I>> wonder if
the anti- development lobbies are at work. In our caste->> striffen, religion -
striffen, region- striffen society it's very easy>> to throw a spanner and stall
any work.>>>>>> To me, security is the most serious issue. It can't be
compromised.>>>>>> So in tune with what Bimal jee has written, in personal
capacity>> I'd advocate, scientiifc study of the structure to find out whether>>
it's man- made or natural. This should not linger on but dealt with>>
expeditiously. However, if most of the people believe that it is the>> bridge
made by Lord Rama, what do we do?>>>>>> CMN>>>>>>>>>>>> Bimal Srivastava
wrote:>>> Dear Sir,>>> My views on the topic are as given below;>>> 1-Do you
think that the structure shown is really man made?.>>> It is a very difficult
question to answer. No one can be far sure.>> However, some unbiased scientific
studies can definitely throw some>> light on the matter.>>> 2-If it is not man
made how come that it is associtaed with name of>>> Lord Rama.>>> Ofcourse,
Names of a place may not always be taken as a solid>> historical evidence,
unless and untill is is supported by other facts.>> In any case, as the issue is
centimental the project should not be>> taken up unless and untill it becomes
unavoidable.>>> 3.Do you support Setu Samudram Project poised to break the
structure>>> and make a lee way to ships in order to facilitate the sea
transport>>> in between east and west coasts.>>> While I do have all faith in
god and 100 % respect for our>> religion, however, I feel that any project of
development should be>> considered, provided it can be proved that it would not
harm the>> ecology, and would not damage the balance of nature. Same thing had>>
been done in case of Suez and Panama canals. Not only that India can>> earn lot
of money by allowing International sea route in the form of>> fee, as being done
by Egypt & Panama in case of Suez and Panama.>>> 4.Do you think that all the
mythologies are just bogus and has nothing>>> to do with realities of the
contemporary world?>>> No.All mythologies (For all religions) have a solid
foundation>> based on facts. The mythologies may get distorted with time,
however,>> we should never discard them. If possible we should always make>>
efforts to discover, the hidden truth behind them by undertaking>> suitable
research projects.>>>>>> 5.And above all do you find any science fictional
elements in the>>> whole affair?>>> A creative Science Fiction writer can always
find some such element>> in such affairs.>>>>>> Bimal Srivastava>>>>>> arvind
mishra wrote:>>> Respected All,>>> I know that a discussion on a topic like such
in this forum shall be>>> genuinely disliked by some but I have a point to make
to defend my>> stand.>>> Many of you might have noticed a picture on the
homepage of this forum>>> [If not please jut check it right now!]and yes it is a
satellite>>> imagery of the structure released by NASA in 2003 which in India
is>>> popularly called 'Ram Setu' or 'Nal setu'.After the publishing of this>>>
very picture all heavens and hells let loose and the hue and cry began>>>
claiming the said structure as a long awaited scientific proof that>>> Lord Rama
really made a bridge to cross the mighty sea and defeat the>>> demon king
Ravana.Though the NASA hastily denied any association with>>> such claims,it
immediately dawned on me that the issue is definitely>>> going to begin a great
upheaval in India.>>> Since mythology always tempts me and has some queer
connections to sf>>> and because I rightly predicted an upheaval in our society
over the>>> issued I chose to focus the aerial view of Rama Setu on the home
page>>> of this forum and no one of you,good heavens has ever objected to>>>
it.After all sf is about making the predictions of all sorts and the>>>
prophetic vision of the moderator is solicited to be taken in this>>> context
only.Just bear it please.>>> Now could I dare to invite your views on the topic
and ask what do you>>> think on the following->>> 1-Do you think that the
structure shown is really man made?.>>> 2-If it is not man made how come that it
is associtaed with name of>>> Lord Rama.>>> 3.Do you support Setu Samudram
Project poised to break the structure>>> and make a lee way to ships in order to
facilitate the sea transport>>> in between east and west coasts.>>> 4.Do you
think that all the mythologies are just bogus and has nothing>>> to do with
realities of the contemporary world?>>> 5.And above all do you find any science
fictional elements in the>>> whole affair?>>> Come on please as how a science
communicator can be behind if a whole>>> nation is talking on a 'burning
isue'like this.>>> Regards,>>> arvind>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
--------------------------------->>> For ideas on reducing your carbon footprint
visit Yahoo! For Good>> this month.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
--------------------------------->>> Get the freedom to save as many mails as
you wish. Click here to>> know how.>>>>>>>
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