The thoughts are not only impressive but also expressed with impressive
clarity.

Hope you'd continue to enrich the forum.

 
 

I quite agree. If such experiences were not common to us all, there is no way that stories could be translated and have any emotional resonance. This is probably the general case with the way we structure stories to convey that experience. In other words, story forms in some ways reflect the way we are hardwired. I say some ways because each language will have unique ways of manipulating the forms that simply are not possible in other languages.

Perhaps what interested me in the transferal of story form from the Buddhist (and by extension, Hindu) folk tales and fables to the hands of Aesop, is that the discussion about the science fiction genre in India, with frequent reference to Asimov, Clarke, and Heinlein (not to mention Gernsback) suggests to me a similar kind of importation—or maybe reacquisition—of a form. The form itself is actually not so new. What’s new is the label “science fiction” and the genre category it marks.

Old form, new name. Edgar Allen Poe, Jules Verne, and H.G. Wells were writing what we call science fiction these days, but they were doing it long before there was a “sci-fi” genre. If they labeled it, they called it tales of mystery and imagination, fabulism, adventure, scientific romance, or something similar. Hugo Gernsback came up with “scientifiction” as a portmanteau word for “scientific” and “fiction” to make it easier for him to categorize his magazine, Amazing Stories, to keep his magazine put on shelves and racks near the science magazines where it was more likely to attract the kinds of readers he was targeting, and where it would not be lost among the proliferation of lurid adventure and weird stories pulp magazines. As a marketing gimmick, the categorization stuck.

Of course, it stuck not just because it’s commercially useful, but because it’s also an extremely convenient way to talk about a type of literature that has more in common with scientific thought experiments and their emphasis on rational materialism than with outright fantasy. I mentioned this in a previous reply to the SF elements in Indian mythic literature thread on this list. The connection, as tenuous as it seems even to me, is that in some sense a form is circling back to you.

Cheers, and best wishes for a happy new year,

Gene van Troyer

On 12/30/07 7:34 PM, "Arvind Mishra" <arvind_drmishra@yahoo.co.in> wrote:

Yes Gene,your point of concern  was  definitely  the semantic aspects of story telling and it is really surprising that how many of the central ideas of these stories remained unchanged despite their spread across a wast space and time frame.

Arabian nights do contain some of our familiar platitudes and vice versa and Jacob's account as quoted by you also establishes the same property of story telling.

This may be indicative of the phenomenon that in spite of all the superficial things like language  etc the basic human attitudes-love and hate,joy and sorrow,ethical and certain eternal  values remain same for us the Homo sapiens!

Do you agree Gene?

Thanks,

arvind

Dear All Friends,
 
Wish you all a happy new year

Zeashan Zaidi

---

Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

To: fun_and_fun_only@yahoogroups.com
From:Sridhar G <www.srid@...>
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 11:20:50 +0530
Subject: [FFO] Imagination ( really coooooool )

TodayS UpdatE ( www.funnyffo.blogspot.com ) : Top Chef - Padma Lakshmi ( HoT ) Top 10 Sexiest legs in Bollywood Kangana Ranaut ( CoooL Pics ) Dabboo Ratnani Celebrity Male Calendar 2008 (XclusivE) Hottie Yana Gupta back on Maxim Cover Brinda Parekh is Hot as hell Katrina Kaif at the promotional event of Welcome Brinda Parekh is Hot as hell Poonam Bajwa ( SexY ActresS ) Madhuri Magic from Aaja Nachle Hrithik for John Players ( Specially for Gals ) Namitha ( SexY PictureS ) Asia's 10 Sexiest Actresses Bhumika Chawla Marriage Photos ( Xclusive ) This  Mail  is  sent  by  a  Member  of   Group.   Join Us thru Email     |     Join Us thru Web     |     Visit Our Blog               powered by

Dear All Friends,
 
Wish you all a happy new year

Zeashan Zaidi

---

Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

To: fun_and_fun_only@yahoogroups.com
From:Sridhar G <www.srid@...>
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 11:20:50 +0530
Subject: [FFO] Imagination ( really coooooool )

TodayS UpdatE ( www.funnyffo.blogspot.com ) : Top Chef - Padma Lakshmi ( HoT ) Top 10 Sexiest legs in Bollywood Kangana Ranaut ( CoooL Pics ) Dabboo Ratnani Celebrity Male Calendar 2008 (XclusivE) Hottie Yana Gupta back on Maxim Cover Brinda Parekh is Hot as hell Katrina Kaif at the promotional event of Welcome Brinda Parekh is Hot as hell Poonam Bajwa ( SexY ActresS ) Madhuri Magic from Aaja Nachle Hrithik for John Players ( Specially for Gals ) Namitha ( SexY PictureS ) Asia's 10 Sexiest Actresses Bhumika Chawla Marriage Photos ( Xclusive ) This  Mail  is  sent  by  a  Member  of   Group.   Join Us thru Email     |     Join Us thru Web     |     Visit Our Blog               powered by

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To: indiansciencefiction@...
From: drarvind3@...
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 07:26:28 +0530
Subject: Re: [indiansciencefiction] Ancient Tales and Translations

Thanks a lot Gene for focusing  on  certain  milestones  in world sf history.In  India  too ' sf label' was not adhered  for long to almost similar literature being written by some very famous and familiar names in Hindi literature like Rahul Sankrityaayan [Baaisaveen sadee-The twenty second century,1924];Aachaarya Chatursen Shastree [Khagraas-The total eclipse,1960's];Maya Prasad Khatree [Maut ki  kiran-the death rays and many more in 1930's] .These authors tried their level best to popularize that new kind of literature in mainstream media but sadly and surprisingly the traditional Hindi literati somehow did not like such developments  though this new literature did carve out  a niche for its own audience.Still today such literature is often [if not always] criticized and  even ridiculed by the Hindi literati for being too much unfamiliar and unconcerned with man's day to day miseries .
The present state /status of sf  in India do invite a lot of introspection amongst we people-so called sf writers to see  if we really  lack some attributes necessarily required for the literary creativities. We  have a very  rich tradition of  social fiction in Indian languages but sf is still considered to be an alien kind of literature. And sadly we still do not have a  daring publishing market  network  which could take the risk of launching a series under  the new label-sf.
Though sf literature do possess some globally common elements  as you would agree but  we have to go a long way  to familiarize  this kind of literature in India .
Regards and thanks a lot again for enlightening us by your experienced views .
arvind

On 30/12/2007, Gene van Troyer <gevantry@nirai.ne.jp> wrote:

I quite agree. If such experiences were not common to us all, there is no way that stories could be translated and have any emotional resonance. This is probably the general case with the way we structure stories to convey that experience. In other words, story forms in some ways reflect the way we are hardwired. I say some ways because each language will have unique ways of manipulating the forms that simply are not possible in other languages.

Perhaps what interested me in the transferal of story form from the Buddhist (and by extension, Hindu) folk tales and fables to the hands of Aesop, is that the discussion about the science fiction genre in India, with frequent reference to Asimov, Clarke, and Heinlein (not to mention Gernsback) suggests to me a similar kind of importation—or maybe reacquisition—of a form. The form itself is actually not so new. What's new is the label "science fiction" and the genre category it marks.

Old form, new name. Edgar Allen Poe, Jules Verne, and H.G. Wells were writing what we call science fiction these days, but they were doing it long before there was a "sci-fi" genre. If they labeled it, they called it tales of mystery and imagination, fabulism, adventure, scientific romance, or something similar. Hugo Gernsback came up with "scientifiction" as a portmanteau word for "scientific" and "fiction" to make it easier for him to categorize his magazine, Amazing Stories, to keep his magazine put on shelves and racks near the science magazines where it was more likely to attract the kinds of readers he was targeting, and where it would not be lost among the proliferation of lurid adventure and weird stories pulp magazines. As a marketing gimmick, the categorization stuck.

Of course, it stuck not just because it's commercially useful, but because it's also an extremely convenient way to talk about a type of literature that has more in common with scientific thought experiments and their emphasis on rational materialism than with outright fantasy. I mentioned this in a previous reply to the SF elements in Indian mythic literature thread on this list. The connection, as tenuous as it seems even to me, is that in some sense a form is circling back to you.

Cheers, and best wishes for a happy new year,

Gene van Troyer

On 12/30/07 7:34 PM, "Arvind Mishra" <arvind_drmishra@yahoo.co.in> wrote:

Yes Gene,your point of concern  was  definitely  the semantic aspects of story telling and it is really surprising that how many of the central ideas of these stories remained unchanged despite their spread across a wast space and time frame.

Arabian nights do contain some of our familiar platitudes and vice versa and Jacob's account as quoted by you also establishes the same property of story telling.

This may be indicative of the phenomenon that in spite of all the superficial things like language  etc the basic human attitudes-love and hate,joy and sorrow,ethical and certain eternal  values remain same for us the Homo sapiens!

Do you agree Gene?

Thanks,

arvind

--
arvind

Yes Gene,your point of concern  was  definitely  the semantic aspects of story telling and it is really surprising that how many of the central ideas of these stories remained unchanged despite their spread across a wast space and time frame.

Arabian nights do contain some of our familiar platitudes and vice versa and Jacob's account as quoted by you also establishes the same property of story telling.

This may be indicative of the phenomenon that in spite of all the superficial things like language  etc the basic human attitudes-love and hate,joy and sorrow,ethical and certain eternal  values remain same for us the Homo sapiens!

Do you agree Gene?

Thanks,

arvind

Thanks for your supplemental information, Arvind. My interest was more in the transmission of story forms and content across linguistic and cultural boundaries, and how that influences story telling and the development of techniques in story telling. Issues of spirituality and matters of godhead are certainly important to the story teller who wishes to relate these to listeners or readers, but the story forms employed are I think neutral as far as that aspect of content is concerned. Hence, the Buddhist story tellers could adapt the stories as they did while removing reference to a supreme deity. Just as easily, I surmise that Hindu story tellers could take the story techniques developed by the Buddhists to retell the stories and reinvoke the aspect of deity.

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I haven't read so much of European literature as to go as far as say how much it's influenced by Indian literature in this respect.  But, there is certainly enough in Indian mythology and earlier text and scripture to make it noticeable.

 

 It may interest you to know that in Indian mythology God Vishnu has 10 incarnations  including fish, tortise, boar,..half man (and half lion) and then human forms.  It neatly fits in with the evolutionary theory!

 

Thanks for bringing jacob's writing to our notice.

 

CMN

 

Gene van Troyer <gevantry@nirai.ne.jp> wrote:

The recent discussion here concerning what some describe as “SF elements” in classical Indian religious and mythic literature suggested to me that the following might be of interest. It regards  the Tales/Fables of Bidpai. I thought the convoluted translation path of the best known English version would interest some, the origin of stories would interest others, and the remarks on literary construction would interest others. Of course, the material is perhaps somewhat dated, but Jacobs was writing in the 1800s:

<http://www.mainlesson.com/display.php?author=jacobs&book=indian&story=notes>

Excerpts from the web site:

T h e   B a l d w i n   P r o j e c t
Bringing Yesterday's Classics to Today's Children
Indian Folk and Fairy Tales  by  Joseph Jacobs

THE story literature of India is in a large measure the outcome of the moral revolution of the peninsula connected with the name of Gautama Buddha. As the influence of his life and doctrines grew, a tendency arose to connect all the popular stories of India round the great teacher. This could be easily effected owing to the wide spread of the belief in metempsychosis. All that was told of the sages of the past could be interpreted of the Buddha by representing them as pre-incarnations of him. Even with Fables, or beast-tales, this could be done, for the Hindoos were Darwinists long before Darwin, and regarded beasts as cousins of men and stages of development in the progress of the soul through the ages. Thus, by identifying the Buddha with the heroes of all folk-tales and the chief characters in the beast-drolls, the Buddhists were enabled to incorporate the whole of the story-store of Hindostan in their sacred books, and enlist on their side the tale-telling instincts of men.
...

In making Buddha the centre figure of the popular literature of India, his followers also invented the Frame as a method of literary art. The idea of connecting a number of disconnected stories familiar to us from The Arabian Nights, Boccaccio's Decamerone, Chaucer's Canterbury Tales, or even Pickwick, is directly traceable to the plan of making Buddha the central figure of India folk-literature.
...

Indian Folk and Fairy Tales by  Joseph Jacobs. There were probably other Buddhist collections of a similar nature to the Jatakas with a framework. When the Hindu reaction against Buddhism came, the Brahmins adapted these, with the omission of Buddha as the central figure. There is scarcely any doubt that the so-called FABLES OF BIDPAI were thus derived from Buddhistic sources. In its Indian form this is now extant as a Panchatantra or Pentateuch, five books of tales connected by a [276] Frame. This collection is of special interest to us in the present connection, as it has come to Europe in various forms and shapes. I have edited Sir Thomas North's English version of an Italian adaptation of a Spanish translation of a Latin version of a Hebrew translation of an Arabic adaptation of the Pehlevi version of the Indian original (Fables of Bidpai, London, D. Nutt, "Bibliotheque de Carabas," 1888). In this I give a genealogical table of the various versions, from which I calculate that the tales have been translated into thirty-eight languages in 112 different versions, twenty different ones in English alone. Their influence on European folk-tales has been very great: it is probable that nearly one-tenth of these can be traced to the Bidpai literature. (See Notes v. ix. x. xiii. xv.)
...

Can we go further and say that India is the source of all the incidents that are held in common by European children? I think we may answer "Yes" as regards droll incidents, the travels of many of which we can trace, and we have the curious result that European children owe their earliest laughter to Hindu wags.
...

NB: As noted at the outset, Jacobs was writing in the 1800s. His views may be at variance with contemporary views. I’m not a literary scholar myself, but what I found interesting was the transmission of story forms and content across linguistic and cultural boundaries.

Cheers,

Gene van Troyer

---

Why delete messages? Unlimited storage is just a click away.

The recent discussion here concerning what some describe as “SF elements” in classical Indian religious and mythic literature suggested to me that the following might be of interest. It regards  the Tales/Fables of Bidpai. I thought the convoluted translation path of the best known English version would interest some, the origin of stories would interest others, and the remarks on literary construction would interest others. Of course, the material is perhaps somewhat dated, but Jacobs was writing in the 1800s:

<http://www.mainlesson.com/display.php?author=jacobs&book=indian&story=notes>

Excerpts from the web site:

T h e   B a l d w i n   P r o j e c t
Bringing Yesterday's Classics to Today's Children
Indian Folk and Fairy Tales  by  Joseph Jacobs

THE story literature of India is in a large measure the outcome of the moral revolution of the peninsula connected with the name of Gautama Buddha. As the influence of his life and doctrines grew, a tendency arose to connect all the popular stories of India round the great teacher. This could be easily effected owing to the wide spread of the belief in metempsychosis. All that was told of the sages of the past could be interpreted of the Buddha by representing them as pre-incarnations of him. Even with Fables, or beast-tales, this could be done, for the Hindoos were Darwinists long before Darwin, and regarded beasts as cousins of men and stages of development in the progress of the soul through the ages. Thus, by identifying the Buddha with the heroes of all folk-tales and the chief characters in the beast-drolls, the Buddhists were enabled to incorporate the whole of the story-store of Hindostan in their sacred books, and enlist on their side the tale-telling instincts of men.
...

In making Buddha the centre figure of the popular literature of India, his followers also invented the Frame as a method of literary art. The idea of connecting a number of disconnected stories familiar to us from The Arabian Nights, Boccaccio's Decamerone, Chaucer's Canterbury Tales, or even Pickwick, is directly traceable to the plan of making Buddha the central figure of India folk-literature.
...

Indian Folk and Fairy Tales by  Joseph Jacobs. There were probably other Buddhist collections of a similar nature to the Jatakas with a framework. When the Hindu reaction against Buddhism came, the Brahmins adapted these, with the omission of Buddha as the central figure. There is scarcely any doubt that the so-called FABLES OF BIDPAI were thus derived from Buddhistic sources. In its Indian form this is now extant as a Panchatantra or Pentateuch, five books of tales connected by a [276] Frame. This collection is of special interest to us in the present connection, as it has come to Europe in various forms and shapes. I have edited Sir Thomas North's English version of an Italian adaptation of a Spanish translation of a Latin version of a Hebrew translation of an Arabic adaptation of the Pehlevi version of the Indian original (Fables of Bidpai, London, D. Nutt, "Bibliotheque de Carabas," 1888). In this I give a genealogical table of the various versions, from which I calculate that the tales have been translated into thirty-eight languages in 112 different versions, twenty different ones in English alone. Their influence on European folk-tales has been very great: it is probable that nearly one-tenth of these can be traced to the Bidpai literature. (See Notes v. ix. x. xiii. xv.)
...

Can we go further and say that India is the source of all the incidents that are held in common by European children? I think we may answer "Yes" as regards droll incidents, the travels of many of which we can trace, and we have the curious result that European children owe their earliest laughter to Hindu wags.
...

NB: As noted at the outset, Jacobs was writing in the 1800s. His views may be at variance with contemporary views. I’m not a literary scholar myself, but what I found interesting was the transmission of story forms and content across linguistic and cultural boundaries.

Cheers,

Gene van Troyer

Friends,
In contradiction to all our skepticism and reservations Mr.Law joined
the IASFS conference  held in Pondycherry and has now posted the
following blog which you may find iteresting.
Please let me know if you successfully accessed the link .no matter
you read or not read the blog.

http://www.travelpod.com/travel-blog-entries/nathanlaw/india/1197471480/tpod.htm\
l



--- In indiansciencefiction@..., "Arvind Mishra"
<dr_arvind3@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Note: Forwarded message attached
>
> -- Original Message --
>
> From: "Arvind Mishra" <dr_arvind3@...>
> To: "Adam Law" <nakedlaw@...>
> Cc: "drarvind3" <drarvind3@...>
> Subject: Re: Re: Interview opportunity
>
> CHERR UPP! HERE IS SOMETHING MORE IN MY STORE FOR YOU MR. LAW !
> An invitation to you to attend the 9th science fiction conference to
be held in Podicherry.Details follow -
> Dear Sir,
>
>                   I suggest that the Naked Law team led by Mr Law
visit Pondi-cherry to participate in the IX Conference of IASFS [of
which I am the Vice-President] on 8th & 9th of December 2007 where the
cream of SF writers& scholars converge for a mega-event.
>
>                   I cannot think of a better place and time. I will
be very happy to interact for a fruitful collaboration on behalf of
Indian Writers & Scholars.
>
>                  Details after hearing from you.
>
>                   With warm regards for a great SF Future !
>
>
RAJASHEKHAR BHOOSNURMATH
> 9th National Science Fiction Conference
> Organized by
> Indian Association for Science Fiction Studies
> Department of English, Pondicherry University, Pondicherry.
> Vigyan Prashar, New Delhi
>
> 8th and 9th December 2007.
> Venue:Dept. of English, Pondicherry University, Venkataraman nagar,
kalapet, Pondicherry – 605 014
> .
> Delegates Fee: Outstation participants: Rs. 500/-; Students  and
Local participants: Rs.200/-
> Senior  Citizens: Rs.300/-; Institutional representation Rs.1000/-
[Delegates fee includes  Breakfast, Tea, Lunch , Dinner ,
Accommodation and Conference material /others] Registration: can be
done at counters on the day of the Conference. Or send a DD to IASFS
payable at Vellore.
>
> Theme: Science in literature / Science Fiction. Or any allied topic
concerned with Science Fiction & Fantasy. Regional / Vernacular SF in
Indian languages will have special sessions. Abstracts/papers can be
sent to Local Secretary at the earliest. For accommodation contact
Local Sec. / Coordinator.
>
> Eligibility: Age, Qualification, previous knowledge no bar. Must be
interested in Reading and Writing of SF or Fantasy short
stories/novels/poetry/drama.
>
> CONTACT: Conference email: iasfsconference@...
> Local Secretary: Dr. NATARAJAN, HOD of English, Pondicherry University,
>
>
>
> On Fri, 16 Nov 2007 Adam Law wrote :
> >Dear Mr. Mishra,
> >
> >Thank you very much for your response.  We are really looking forward
> >to meeting you and talking about your work and organization.  Could
> >you please send us a number to contact you with?  We will contact you
> >a week or so in advance of our arrival.  Also could you please tell us
> >which city you are currently residing in so that we can make concrete
> >plans for the interview time and location.  Currently our team is in
> >Mumbai and will travel all over India for the next 2 months.
> >
> >All the best,
> >
> >Adam John Law
> >Naked Law President/Founder
> >nakedlaw@...
> >
> >On 5 Nov 2007 15:16:19 -0000, Arvind Mishra <dr_arvind3@...> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >  Dear Mr.Law,
> > >  Thanks for your kind invitation to interview prominent people,
academic and
> > > scientific organizations throughout India for  'Naked Law'.I
welcome  and
> > > happily express my concurrence to the novel venture.
> > >  Please intimate me the itinerary of your team in India so that
I can plan
> > > well in advance the envisioned interview and inform the members
of Indian
> > > science fiction forum accordingly.
> > >  Looking forward to hear from you soon,
> > >  sincerely,
> > >  arvind mishra
> > >
> > >  On Fri, 02 Nov 2007 Adam Law wrote :
> > >
> > >
> > >  >Dear Sience Fiction Writers in India,
> > >  >
> > >  >Greetings, my name is Adam Law, the founder of a
news/educational website
> > >  >and monthly online magazine named "naked law", that will be
launching in
> > >  >Spring 2008.  One of the projects that our website is
currently producing
> > >  >are interviews with prominent academic and scientific
organizations
> > >  >throughout India from November until mid January.  We are
attempting to
> > >  >compile interviews from experts in various fields and have
dialogue on the
> > >  >most important and exciting issues being explored in India.
We are very
> > >  >interested in your organization and its work and we would like
to know if
> > > it
> > >  >is possible to schedule an interview with someone from your
organization
> > > for
> > >  >possible use on our news website and online magazine.  If you are
> > > interested
> > >  >please respond to this mail and we can schedule a date and
time to conduct
> > >  >the interview while our team is in India.  We are looking
forward to
> > > hearing
> > >  > from you.
> > >  >
> > >  >Sincerely,
> > >  >
> > >  >Adam John Law
> > >  >Naked Law President/Founder
> > >  >nakedlaw@...
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
>

Most Welcome Gauhar Sahib,We are in fact honoured by your presence on the forum.
Please join the current discussion on UTOPIA.
regards,
arvind


On Fri, 28 Dec 2007 CHANDRA MOHAN NAUTIYAL wrote :
>Welcome Dr. Gauhar,
>
>  Several of us are not prolific sci fi writer or in fact no sci- fi writer at all but enjoy reading them and appreciate them.
>
>  Look forward to your posts.
>
>  CM Nautiyal
>
>
>gauhar raza <gauhar_raza@...> wrote:
>              though i am not science fiction writer, i will be honoured to join the group.
>  gauhar
>
>
>
>---------------------------------
>  Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
>
>
>
>
>---------------------------------
>  Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now

though i am not science fiction writer, i will be honoured to join the group.

gauhar

---

Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

What an exciting discussion on wonderful imaginative capabilities of our poets and rishies.
I wish I had more time to comment. However I cannot prevent myself from making a short comment.
The metaphor of Kagbhushundi the kaak has gor many dimensions.
Firstly it is a bird making the most amazing discovery. Is it not a flight of imagination! and What an excetional and ground breaking imagination, and that too without any scientific i.e. theoritical and technological base; it makes it even more praiseworthy.
Secondly, Whatever the universe the source of all is one, as Arvind Jee has commented, and more than that it is Raam who is the same i.e. Maryaadaa Purushottam, the Most Ideal person. It indicates that regardless of the type of Universe in the Cosmos or on earth, the IDEALS are the same,  they are multiversal and timeless.
In short the imaginations in our scriptures are astounding to say the least.
Our scriptures are a varietable garden of facts, superfacts, superfictions and superfantasies. I do not find it difficult to discern one from the other, and yet I remain hypnotized, so to say.
More later
Thanks
vmt


 

 

Vishwa Mohan Tiwari

---

To: indiansciencefiction@yahoogroups.co.in
From: cmnautiyal@yahoo.co.uk
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 04:38:05 +0000
Subject: Re: [indiansciencefiction] Sf elements in Indian Scriptures !

Beautifuly stated.

 

Our discussion on SFa and SFi, referred to by Mr. Gore yestyerday, also has the generasl consensus like this.

 

Indian mythology is replete with metaphors like what Dr. Arvind Mishra referred. They also include issues like time dialation (relativity) wherein a king goes to heaven and requests God to suggest a suitable match for his daughter.  He has a list of prospective grooms ready.  God smiles and says that the list is irrelavant as during the time of journey and wait in the God's court, a very long period has passed on earth!

 

The references to such deep concepts being just passing references without details suggests that either this was all or the 'detailed theoretical tratment' is else where/ gone missing.  But as I said, intutive powers must have been great as evidenced by remarkable consistency among various scriptures (lot of interrelated stories and cross references).

 

They certainly stimulate to think and also tell us about the vision and intellect of those people.  May be in normal course, they would probably have realised these concepts (like several fictions of first half of the 20th century turning into reality now) but some  unfortunate calamity hit the earth.

 

These are all speculation. But forms a good idea, in my opinion, for a fiction.  However, considering the tiredness seen in second half of 'Maya' experiment, I don't know if there are any takers!

 

CMN
Gene van Troyer <gevantry@nirai.ne.jp> wrote:

On 12/12/07 10:35 PM, "CHANDRA MOHAN NAUTIYAL" <cmnautiyal@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
 

The simple reason why I believe the things described in scriptures as imagination rather than reality is not just the lack of any material evidence but also a complete lack of any details.  We may attribute it to the destruction of our temples of learning (Nalanda, ..) which were all vandalised by invaders.  The most generous description I could find is neither proved, nor disproved.
 

To be sure, I regard it all as speculation for the same reason: lack of empirical support. Without the physical evidence to prove it, what is left is speculation. That being said, even though these may be speculations, they still establish a concepts—one might say working hypotheses still awaiting proofs. In the application of the scientific method I believe that the speculative is called a “thought experiment.” These are useful because they can be so stimulating.

I wouldn’t go so far as to say the the multiplicity of universes that the Crow found in the stomach of Lord Rama qualifies as a thought experiment, but is more likely a metaphor of the varied nature of human existence. It does, however, establish a conceptual framework in which someone familiar with this scriptural passage about multiple universes would not find it at all strange to see the concept of the Multiverse emerge from quantum physics with some theoretical validity that seems to account for the behavior of the material universe at the quantum level.

I quite agree that while we take delight in the stimulation represented by the fanciful, we keep ourselves wedded to proof. Otherwise, we strike a course into superstition. I suppose this is a defining difference between science fiction and fantasy. Science fiction, however fanciful its subject matter may be, makes an effort to keep its conceptual framework anchored to what is at least allowable according to what we know about the physical universe, and if it extends beyond this knowledge, it still makes some effort to account for it as a reasonable extension. The ligic of the SF story must fit into the logic of the physical universe. Fantasy, on the other hand, requires only that logic be consistent within its conceptual framework, even though the framework itself is unmoored from the verifiable nature of the physical world.

Cheers,

Gene van Troyer

---

Explore your hobbies and interests. Click here to begin.

---

Don't get caught with egg on your face. Play Chicktionary! Check it out!

 
Dear Friends,
These are some pics of Iasfs 07 sent by Manish Gore,please enjoy having a
look on them.
arvind
Note: Forwarded message attached

-- Original Message --

From: mmgore@...
To: skgore@...
Cc: chinmaya_army@...
Subject: photo

pl. find enclosed 3 photographs of Pandicherry, SF conference

Manish Gore

This is a good story written by Tiwari Ji. In very interesting way “Mithi Awaz Ka Jadoo” describes the physical laws of sound and their applications in the improvement of quality of singing. However the story lacks ‘fiction’ element.

Of course India is very rich in the field of Musical Classics. In the past we see very brilliant musicians who knew how the quality of sound can be improved by using a good combination of musical instruments and a favorable environment.

Well known music director Naushad Ali once used bathroom for producing echo in a song of Mughal E Azam sung by Lata Mangeshkar. Musician Khyyam often used echo effects in his composings.

i.e there are a lot of thing in the background of a ‘Mithi Awaz’.

 

Regards

Zeashan Zaidi

Arvind Mishra <arvind_drmishra@yahoo.co.in> wrote:

Wish you a very happy new year Tiwaree jee in adance, Trust You come back with renewed vigour and zeal.The way Arjun got rejuvenated  during his agyaatvaas  in  Mahabhaarat.
Rest assure your story awaits quality readership and audience.
regards,
arvind

Vishwa Mohan Tiwari <onevishwa@hotmail.com> wrote:

Friends I forgot to mention that I would be away till 5th jan 08, so
 Happy New Year.

 

Vishwa Mohan Tiwari

---

To: indiansciencefiction@yahoogroups.co.in
From: onevishwa@hotmail.com
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 07:40:01 -0800
Subject: RE: [indiansciencefiction] Re: Story by Tiwari jee

At last I found time to send you the story. Thank you for being so patient.
Hope you would not be disappointed.
The story is in shusha fonts, which are also attached.
vmt

 

Vishwa Mohan Tiwari

---

To: indiansciencefiction@yahoogroups.co.in
From: cmnautiyal@yahoo.co.uk
Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 10:05:58 +0000
Subject: Re: [indiansciencefiction] Re: Story by Tiwari jee

May be Tiwari jee can put it on the forum; I have a hard copy of the issue.

 

CMN

 

HAPPY DEEWALI TO ALL THE FORUM- FRIENDS!

 

Chandra Mohan Nautiyal

arvind mishra <arvind_drmishra@yahoo.co.in> wrote:

thanks but where is the story?--- In
indiansciencefiction@yahoogroups.co.in, CHANDRA MOHAN NAUTIYAL
<cmnautiyal@...> wrote:
>
> Those who have access to it, may like to read Tiwari jee's
interesting story 'Meethee awaz ka jadu' on page- 7 of Science Times:
News and Views published by Sh. Irfan Human, 67, Anta, Railway field,
Shahjahanpur- 242001, UP. First part is already published in the Sep-
Oct issue.
>
> CM Nautiyal
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Save all your chat conversations. Find them online.
>

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arvind mishra

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To: indiansciencefiction@...
From: drarvind3@...
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 12:54:19 +0530
Subject: Re: [indiansciencefiction] Re: Story by Tiwari jee

Welcome Res VMT ,Story is really worth reading and Zeashan has already  commented on its significance
.Yes I would recommend its publication in Vigyan katha.
arvind

On 24/12/2007, Vishwa Mohan Tiwari <onevishwa@hotmail.com> wrote:

Arvind jee
the sory is now with you.
You may consider it for publishing it.
vmt

 

Vishwa Mohan Tiwari

---

To: indiansciencefiction@yahoogroups.co.in
From: onevishwa@hotmail.com
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 04:34:04 -0800
Subject: RE: [indiansciencefiction] Re: Story by Tiwari jee

Dear Dr Arvind jee
Thsi is the same story that I had sent to Dr Upadhyay jee, he may have a copy.
Vishwa Mohan Tiwari
________________________________> To: indiansciencefiction@yahoogroups.co.in> From: dr_arvind3@rediffmail.com> Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 13:59:04 +0000> Subject: Re: RE: [indiansciencefiction] Re: Story by Tiwari jee>> Thanks VMT sir,waiting your story eagerly. both parts.> On Thu, 08 Nov 2007 Vishwa Mohan Tiwari wrote :>>>>Dr Arvind Mishra jee>>Please bear with me. I hope to post it soon.>>Vishwa Mohan Tiwari>>________________________________> To: indiansciencefiction@yahoogroups.co.in> From: arvind_drmishra@yahoo.co.in> Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 09:23:37 +0000> Subject: [indiansciencefiction] Re: Story by Tiwari jee>> thanks but where is the story?--- In> indiansciencefiction@yahoogroups.co.in, CHANDRA MOHAN NAUTIYAL> wrote:>>>> Those who have access to it, may like to read Tiwari jee's> interesting story 'Meethee awaz ka jadu' on page- 7 of Science Times:> News and Views published by Sh. Irfan Human, 67, Anta, Railway field,> Shahjahanpur- 242001, UP. First part is already published in the Sep-> Oct issue.>>>> CM Nautiyal>>>>>> --------------------------------->> Save all your chat conversations. Find them online.>>>>>>>__________________________________________________________>>Boo! Scare away worms, viruses and so much more! Try Windows Live OneCare!>> http://onecare.live.com/standard/en-us/purchase/trial.aspx?s_cid=wl_hotmailnews >

__________________________________________________________
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---

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--
arvind

What an exciting discussion on wonderful imaginative capabilities of our poets and rishies.
I wish I had more time to comment. However I cannot prevent myself from making a short comment.
The metaphor of Kagbhushundi the kaak has gor many dimensions.
Firstly it is a bird making the most amazing discovery. Is it not a flight of imagination! and What an excetional and ground breaking imagination, and that too without any scientific i.e. theoritical and technological base; it makes it even more praiseworthy.
Secondly, Whatever the universe the source of all is one, as Arvind Jee has commented, and more than that it is Raam who is the same i.e. Maryaadaa Purushottam, the Most Ideal person. It indicates that regardless of the type of Universe in the Cosmos or on earth, the IDEALS are the same,  they are multiversal and timeless.
In short the imaginations in our scriptures are astounding to say the least.
Our scriptures are a varietable garden of facts, superfacts, superfictions and superfantasies. I do not find it difficult to discern one from the other, and yet I remain hypnotized, so to say.
More later
Thanks
vmt


 

 

Vishwa Mohan Tiwari

---

To: indiansciencefiction@yahoogroups.co.in
From: cmnautiyal@yahoo.co.uk
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 04:38:05 +0000
Subject: Re: [indiansciencefiction] Sf elements in Indian Scriptures !

Beautifuly stated.

 

Our discussion on SFa and SFi, referred to by Mr. Gore yestyerday, also has the generasl consensus like this.

 

Indian mythology is replete with metaphors like what Dr. Arvind Mishra referred. They also include issues like time dialation (relativity) wherein a king goes to heaven and requests God to suggest a suitable match for his daughter.  He has a list of prospective grooms ready.  God smiles and says that the list is irrelavant as during the time of journey and wait in the God's court, a very long period has passed on earth!

 

The references to such deep concepts being just passing references without details suggests that either this was all or the 'detailed theoretical tratment' is else where/ gone missing.  But as I said, intutive powers must have been great as evidenced by remarkable consistency among various scriptures (lot of interrelated stories and cross references).

 

They certainly stimulate to think and also tell us about the vision and intellect of those people.  May be in normal course, they would probably have realised these concepts (like several fictions of first half of the 20th century turning into reality now) but some  unfortunate calamity hit the earth.

 

These are all speculation. But forms a good idea, in my opinion, for a fiction.  However, considering the tiredness seen in second half of 'Maya' experiment, I don't know if there are any takers!

 

CMN
Gene van Troyer <gevantry@nirai.ne.jp> wrote:

On 12/12/07 10:35 PM, "CHANDRA MOHAN NAUTIYAL" <cmnautiyal@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
 

The simple reason why I believe the things described in scriptures as imagination rather than reality is not just the lack of any material evidence but also a complete lack of any details.  We may attribute it to the destruction of our temples of learning (Nalanda, ..) which were all vandalised by invaders.  The most generous description I could find is neither proved, nor disproved.
 

To be sure, I regard it all as speculation for the same reason: lack of empirical support. Without the physical evidence to prove it, what is left is speculation. That being said, even though these may be speculations, they still establish a concepts—one might say working hypotheses still awaiting proofs. In the application of the scientific method I believe that the speculative is called a “thought experiment.” These are useful because they can be so stimulating.

I wouldn’t go so far as to say the the multiplicity of universes that the Crow found in the stomach of Lord Rama qualifies as a thought experiment, but is more likely a metaphor of the varied nature of human existence. It does, however, establish a conceptual framework in which someone familiar with this scriptural passage about multiple universes would not find it at all strange to see the concept of the Multiverse emerge from quantum physics with some theoretical validity that seems to account for the behavior of the material universe at the quantum level.

I quite agree that while we take delight in the stimulation represented by the fanciful, we keep ourselves wedded to proof. Otherwise, we strike a course into superstition. I suppose this is a defining difference between science fiction and fantasy. Science fiction, however fanciful its subject matter may be, makes an effort to keep its conceptual framework anchored to what is at least allowable according to what we know about the physical universe, and if it extends beyond this knowledge, it still makes some effort to account for it as a reasonable extension. The ligic of the SF story must fit into the logic of the physical universe. Fantasy, on the other hand, requires only that logic be consistent within its conceptual framework, even though the framework itself is unmoored from the verifiable nature of the physical world.

Cheers,

Gene van Troyer

---

Explore your hobbies and interests. Click here to begin.

---

Don't get caught with egg on your face. Play Chicktionary! Check it out!

---

To: indiansciencefiction@...
From: onevishwa@...
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 04:34:04 -0800
Subject: RE: [indiansciencefiction] Re: Story by Tiwari jee

Dear Dr Arvind jee
Thsi is the same story that I had sent to Dr Upadhyay jee, he may have a copy.
Vishwa Mohan Tiwari
________________________________> To: indiansciencefiction@yahoogroups.co.in> From: dr_arvind3@rediffmail.com> Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 13:59:04 +0000> Subject: Re: RE: [indiansciencefiction] Re: Story by Tiwari jee>> Thanks VMT sir,waiting your story eagerly. both parts.> On Thu, 08 Nov 2007 Vishwa Mohan Tiwari wrote :>>>>Dr Arvind Mishra jee>>Please bear with me. I hope to post it soon.>>Vishwa Mohan Tiwari>>________________________________> To: indiansciencefiction@yahoogroups.co.in> From: arvind_drmishra@yahoo.co.in> Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 09:23:37 +0000> Subject: [indiansciencefiction] Re: Story by Tiwari jee>> thanks but where is the story?--- In> indiansciencefiction@yahoogroups.co.in, CHANDRA MOHAN NAUTIYAL> wrote:>>>> Those who have access to it, may like to read Tiwari jee's> interesting story 'Meethee awaz ka jadu' on page- 7 of Science Times:> News and Views published by Sh. Irfan Human, 67, Anta, Railway field,> Shahjahanpur- 242001, UP. First part is already published in the Sep-> Oct issue.>>>> CM Nautiyal>>>>>> --------------------------------->> Save all your chat conversations. Find them online.>>>>>>>__________________________________________________________>>Boo! Scare away worms, viruses and so much more! Try Windows Live OneCare!>>http://onecare.live.com/standard/en-us/purchase/trial.aspx?s_cid=wl_hotmailnews>

__________________________________________________________
Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks & Treats for You!
http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us

---

To: indiansciencefiction@...
From: zeashanzaidi@...
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 03:08:54 -0800
Subject: Re: [indiansciencefiction] Re: Cark's Birthday

Feeling very much pleasure to meet Mr. Clarke by this intrview. Thanks to Arvind Ji.

 

Zeashan Zaidi 

arvind mishra <arvind_drmishra@yahoo.co.in> wrote:

Dear Friends.
This interview sf messiah Arthur C Clarke has appeared in DAILY NEWS,
a popular daily of Shrilanka.I reccommend you to kindly read and comment.
Discovering the limits of the possible:
Sir Arthur C Clarke at 90

Sir Arthur C Clarke answers questions from BBC Focus Magazine

Sri Lanka's best known resident guest Sir Arthur C Clarke celebrates
his 90th birthday on December 16, 2007.

The world's best known writer of science fiction, Sir Arthur C Clarke
was the first to propose satellite communications in 1945. One of his
short stories inspired the World Wide Web, while another was later
expanded to make the movie 2001: A Space Odyssey, which he co-wrote
with director Stanley Kubrick. He has lived in Sri Lanka since 1956.

Q: How does it feel to reach 90 ?

A: Well, I don't feel a day older than 85. And to quote Bob Hope, "You
know you're getting old when the candles cost more than the cake." But
the saddest part is that most of my friends and contemporaries are gone.

During your life you've seen some of the most rapid and radical
developments in technology that humanity has ever accomplished. Have
things unfolded as you anticipated? Has anything surprised you?

Growing up in the 1920s and 1930s, I never thought I'd live to see so
much happen.

Sir Arthur C Clarke
Pics: Shahidul Alam/Drik

It's true that we `space cadets' of the British Interplanetary Society
spent all our spare time discussing space travel, but we never
imagined that our dreams would become reality in our lifetime.

I still can't believe that we've just marked the 50th anniversary of
the Space Age!

Q: Of everything you've done and written, what's the one thing you're
most proud of ?

A: I have over 100 books and more than 1,000 short pieces to choose
from. In terms of impact, I'd say it was `Extra-terrestrial Relays'
(Wireless World, Oct 1945) where I invented the communications
satellite, and for which I was paid the princely sum of ?15.

A close second is the short story `The Sentinel', originally written
in 1948 for a BBC competition (it wasn't placed!) and later expanded
into a certain home movie that I made with Stanley Kubrick...

Q:What are you working on at the moment ? Will there be any more
novels? Do you ever plan to retire?

A: My plans for retirement always flop so spectacularly that I don't
even try now. Frederik Pohl is currently completing my latest novel,
The Last Theorem, which has taken a lot longer than I expected. That
could well be my last novel...but then, I've said that before!

Q: What's your favourite book of all time?

A: Among my own: Childhood's End (1953) and The Songs of Distant Earth
(1986). By others: Last and First Men (1930) by Olaf Stapledon

Q: Does the state of the world today climate change, wars worry you?
Do you think humans will prevail? Did you foresee such a gloomy future
for us?

A: I have great faith in optimism as a philosophy, if only because it
offers us the opportunity of self-fulfilling prophecy. I'd like to
think that we've learnt something from the most barbaric century in
history that we've just lived through - the 20th. And climate change
has resulted from our addiction to oil and coal.

Developing clean energy sources in the coming years can prevent us
making the situation worse, but we'll have to live with many adverse
consequences of our planetary meddling. But humanity will prevail.

Q: What is the greatest threat that we, as a race, are facing?

A: Organised religion polluting our minds as it pretends to delivery
morality and spiritual salvation. It's spreading the most malevolent
mind virus of all. I hope our race can one day outgrow this primitive
notion, as I envisaged in 3001: The Final Odyssey.

Q: If you were world leader, what would you change?

A: States and governments mixing governance with religion. This is a
lethal cocktail that keeps billions in misery. Religion must be a very
private affair that should never be a spectator sport.

Q: Who would you banish to a parallel universe?

A: Lawyers and priests!

Q: Who would you clone ?

A: My well-known modesty doesn't allow me to answer this myself...so
it should be my current collaborator Stephen Baxter! Then we could
churn out even more novels...

Q: If you weren't giving this interview, what would you be doing?

A: Dreaming. I now have to survive on 16 hours of sleep a day, but
enjoy the vivid dreams I have. I may be wheel-chaired but my mind
roams everywhere. Met a lot of friendly dinosaurs last night...

Q: What's your most treasured possession?

A: I'm trying to decide between a speck of Moondust smuggled out of
NASA (don't ask by who!), a paper cup compressed by the enormous
pressure at the Titanic wreck, and a copy of my Fountains of Paradise
flown on the Space Shuttle...

Q: What gadget would you most like to see invented ?

A: A time-viewer with which we can see what happened in the past and
might happen in the future, but without us risking the journey
ourselves. The Light of Other Days (2001) is based on this idea.

Q: If you could travel anywhere in the universe, at any time period,
when and where would it be and why?

A: I would like to be present at the first contact with
extra-terrestrials - assuming that they're not as unpleasant as H sap.

Q: In 2003 you claimed that there's vegetation on the surface of Mars.
Do you still think that's the case?

A: After studying dozens of images returned by recent Mars surveyor
missions, I found some surface features that looked very like Banyan
trees. Something is actually moving and changing with the seasons that
suggests, at least, vegetation.

Of course this needs verification, which I hope will happen soon.

If true, this would help human settlements on the Red Planet one day.

Q: Do you still support cold fusion?

A: It isn't quite cold and it's probably not fusion, but something is
going on. For a decade or more, I've kept an open mind about these new
energy experiments, even though we have yet to see commercial scale
results. I eagerly await the final verdict on this affair - the jury
is still out.

I would be disappointed if `cold fusion' turns out to be a mere
laboratory curiosity.

But that seems unlikely: anything so novel would indicate a major
breakthrough. Of course, if these anomalous excess energy results can
be scaled up, that could terminate the era of fossil fuels, end
worries about climate change, and alter the geopolitical structure of
our planet out of recognition.

Q: Are there any other ideas considered wayward of the mainstream that
you support, and why?

A: I've been promoting the Space Elevator for over 30 years, beginning
at a time when people could not suppress their laughter.

But nobody is laughing now, and it is almost `mainstream'. I would
still keep an open mind on time travel and multiple probabilities
universes - where everything that can happen does happen.

Q: What do you think is the single most important advance that humans
will make before the 21st century is out?

A: If I had three wishes, I would ask for these:

1. A method to generate limitless quantities of clean energy.

2. Affordable and reliable means of space transport.

3. Eliminating the design faults in the human body

Q: Would you ever consider having yourself cryogenically frozen? And
if so, when would you ask to be revived?

A: I have no wish to be frozen, or to have myself preserved in any
other way. My garden in Colombo holds the graves of several beloved
pets, and one day - though not I hope for a long time - my own ashes
will be deposited alongside them.

Who do you think are the rising star writers and scientists of the future?

There are so many talented writers and a new breed of public
scientists today that it would be unfair to single out any.

They have many more ways of reaching out and engaging their audiences
today than we did back in the first half of the 20th century.

Q: What is your message to the young thinkers, scientists and writers
of the world today?

A: Remember Clarke's Three Laws:

1. When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is
possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something
is impossible, he is probably wrong.

2. The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to
venture a little way past them into the impossible.

3. Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

The original interview appears in the December 2007 issue of the UK's
Focus magazine, on sale now. For further information, visit
www.bbcfocusmagazine.com. Focus is the BBC's multi award-winning
popular science and technology monthly, published by BBC Magazines
Bristol, UK.
Fellow Earthlings!

Sixty two years ago Arthur C. Clarke of the British Interplanetary
Society sent a letter to the editor titled Peacetime Uses for V2 which
was published in the 1945 February issue of the Wireless World
magazine suggesting the use of Geostationary Satellites for the
instant global communications. Quoting,

"I would like to close by mentioning a possibility of the more remote
future?perhaps half a century ahead.

An ``artificial satellite'' at the correct distance from the earth
would make one revolution every 24 hours; i.e., it would remain
stationary above the same spot and would be within optical range of
nearly half the earth's surface. Three repeater stations, 120 degrees
apart in the correct orbit, could give television and microwave
coverage to the entire planet."

Today, the Clarke Orbit has over 330 satellites. Sir Arthur C. Clarke,
a science-fiction author, inventor, and futurist, simply a great mind
celebrates his 90th birth anniversary on 16th of December, 2007.

In 1959, he founded the Ceylon Astronomical Association (now known as
Sri Lanka Astronomical Association). As the current General Secretary
of the Association, I'm honoured to run an association founded by him.
And as a big fan of his writings and admirer of his work, I have put
up a blog where every one could wish him for his 90th birth day.

If you are a friend, colleague, fan or simply an earthling who admires
work of Sir Arthur Clarke, please write your greetings and wishes on
the blog,

sirarthurcclarke90.blogs.com

Let us wish together a healthy and a long life for Sir Arthur.

Thilina Heenatigala, Sri Lanka Astronomical Association

Trust You enjoyed reading.
arvind

--- In indiansciencefiction@yahoogroups.co.in, "Unmukt" <unmukt.s@...>
wrote:
>
> Arthur C Clark is turning 90 on 16.12.2006. Read the story <a
> href="http://blog.wired.com/underwire/2007/12/arthur-c-clarke.html">
> here</a>. You can also vote for your favourite Science fiction story.
>

---

Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

---

To: indiansciencefiction@...
From: cmnautiyal@...
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 04:38:05 +0000
Subject: Re: [indiansciencefiction] Sf elements in Indian Scriptures !

Beautifuly stated.

 

Our discussion on SFa and SFi, referred to by Mr. Gore yestyerday, also has the generasl consensus like this.

 

Indian mythology is replete with metaphors like what Dr. Arvind Mishra referred. They also include issues like time dialation (relativity) wherein a king goes to heaven and requests God to suggest a suitable match for his daughter.  He has a list of prospective grooms ready.  God smiles and says that the list is irrelavant as during the time of journey and wait in the God's court, a very long period has passed on earth!

 

The references to such deep concepts being just passing references without details suggests that either this was all or the 'detailed theoretical tratment' is else where/ gone missing.  But as I said, intutive powers must have been great as evidenced by remarkable consistency among various scriptures (lot of interrelated stories and cross references).

 

They certainly stimulate to think and also tell us about the vision and intellect of those people.  May be in normal course, they would probably have realised these concepts (like several fictions of first half of the 20th century turning into reality now) but some  unfortunate calamity hit the earth.

 

These are all speculation. But forms a good idea, in my opinion, for a fiction.  However, considering the tiredness seen in second half of 'Maya' experiment, I don't know if there are any takers!

 

CMN
Gene van Troyer <gevantry@nirai.ne.jp> wrote:

On 12/12/07 10:35 PM, "CHANDRA MOHAN NAUTIYAL" <cmnautiyal@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
 

The simple reason why I believe the things described in scriptures as imagination rather than reality is not just the lack of any material evidence but also a complete lack of any details.  We may attribute it to the destruction of our temples of learning (Nalanda, ..) which were all vandalised by invaders.  The most generous description I could find is neither proved, nor disproved.
 

To be sure, I regard it all as speculation for the same reason: lack of empirical support. Without the physical evidence to prove it, what is left is speculation. That being said, even though these may be speculations, they still establish a concepts—one might say working hypotheses still awaiting proofs. In the application of the scientific method I believe that the speculative is called a “thought experiment.” These are useful because they can be so stimulating.

I wouldn’t go so far as to say the the multiplicity of universes that the Crow found in the stomach of Lord Rama qualifies as a thought experiment, but is more likely a metaphor of the varied nature of human existence. It does, however, establish a conceptual framework in which someone familiar with this scriptural passage about multiple universes would not find it at all strange to see the concept of the Multiverse emerge from quantum physics with some theoretical validity that seems to account for the behavior of the material universe at the quantum level.

I quite agree that while we take delight in the stimulation represented by the fanciful, we keep ourselves wedded to proof. Otherwise, we strike a course into superstition. I suppose this is a defining difference between science fiction and fantasy. Science fiction, however fanciful its subject matter may be, makes an effort to keep its conceptual framework anchored to what is at least allowable according to what we know about the physical universe, and if it extends beyond this knowledge, it still makes some effort to account for it as a reasonable extension. The ligic of the SF story must fit into the logic of the physical universe. Fantasy, on the other hand, requires only that logic be consistent within its conceptual framework, even though the framework itself is unmoored from the verifiable nature of the physical world.

Cheers,

Gene van Troyer

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To: indiansciencefiction@...
From: cmnautiyal@...
Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 07:53:23 +0000
Subject: RE: [indiansciencefiction] Re: Story by Tiwari jee

Thanks and wishes for the new year to you too. 

 

I had scanned and put the story on this forum about 2 weeks ago so hope that some have already had chance to read the first part.

 

CMN

Vishwa Mohan Tiwari <onevishwa@hotmail.com> wrote:

At last I found time to send you the story. Thank you for being so patient.
Hope you would not be disappointed.
The story is in shusha fonts, which are also attached.
vmt

 

Vishwa Mohan Tiwari

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To: indiansciencefiction@yahoogroups.co.in
From: cmnautiyal@yahoo.co.uk
Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 10:05:58 +0000
Subject: Re: [indiansciencefiction] Re: Story by Tiwari jee

May be Tiwari jee can put it on the forum; I have a hard copy of the issue.

 

CMN

 

HAPPY DEEWALI TO ALL THE FORUM- FRIENDS!

 

Chandra Mohan Nautiyal

arvind mishra <arvind_drmishra@yahoo.co.in> wrote:

thanks but where is the story?--- In
indiansciencefiction@yahoogroups.co.in, CHANDRA MOHAN NAUTIYAL
<cmnautiyal@...> wrote:
>
> Those who have access to it, may like to read Tiwari jee's
interesting story 'Meethee awaz ka jadu' on page- 7 of Science Times:
News and Views published by Sh. Irfan Human, 67, Anta, Railway field,
Shahjahanpur- 242001, UP. First part is already published in the Sep-
Oct issue.
>
> CM Nautiyal
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Save all your chat conversations. Find them online.
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