Friends,

Rukhsana Yasmin is more than welcome amongst the Science students and lovers, as she has a different approach to the subject.

It is correct that lots of events in mythology are based on supernatural powers of one kind or another; and SF is based on science.

The relationship between them is of IDEAS, emerging from human minds. Ideas are the most important aspect of creativity.

What we are generally discussing on this subject in this forum  is that we can take an idea from mythology and then transform it to suit our 'worldview' and create SF by replacing the supernatural power with Science. Mythology has still got super ideas that science has not demonstrated yet.

Matter and energy are indestructible, they interchange between them.

What about event?  If  an event is interaction between matter and energy, then the law of conservation applies.

 But if an event involves a human being and his mind, then?

An idea can also be indestructible. It may change and yet it may not even change under force! The world of mind, I mean laws of mind, are different from  that of the world of matter.

Although mathematically time can flow in either direction; but physically it flows in one direction only; from past to present to future. Ink porured out from abottle on the ground, cannot go back into the bottle, merely by travelling back. It goes against the laws of gravity. Also entropy is always increasing, i.e. time is one way traffic.

Scientifically, there cannot be a time machine travelling towards the past, its past. One persons past may be anothers future, but one persons past cannot become his own future, and vice versa. Historically and metaphorically past is prsent in present and therefore in future, also following the laws of causality.

What is death? There are two types of changes, reverswible and irreversible. Can we not say that the irreversible event  has been destroyed !  Death is also an irreversible change in the human state. Nobody can dip into the same river twice ! Ofcourse we maintain that in either of the changes conservation law applies, and yet irreversible  events are destroyed and human deaths occur.

Mythology  gives a new vision of future but with the help of supernatural forces, but the vision can be new as in SF.

Thanks

Vishwa Mohan Tiwari

---

From: Rukhsana Yasmin <yasmin_rukhsana@...>
Reply-To: indiansciencefiction@...
To: indiansciencefiction@...
Subject: Re: [indiansciencefiction] SF & Mythology
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 06:34:30 -0700 (PDT)

hello.....

its nice to see people giving their views in such explainative way......but i ve few points of mine to put forward and few questions as well which i expect to be answered by u intellects

 

first of all i fail to understand the relation between mythology and science fiction.....

mythology is more of based on supernatural powers......mostly in divine powers and magic....and science fiction is based on scientific facts and technology....

 

i agree tht ENERGY can neither be created not destroyed but changes frm one form to other....but events????

 

how can one say the same for events????

.........and also discovery and inventions are two different things.......newton disocvered the law of gravity...coz it already existed tht we never noticed.....newton did....we discover something which already exist in universe...

but when RIGHT brother invented plane ...it was an invention.....it wasn't a transformation of one phase to other.....it was altogether a new event......

 

 

how can one credit harry potter and arabian nights as motivation for science fiction????

 

u mean to say......one day a "wand" will be created and with few words i'll be able to fly , become invisible or go into the past and look into it???? sounds odd to me......what has happened has happened.....one can't save the past like a backup we do in virtual world.....

 

also.....human being can change itself frm one form to other at their will???? is it possible????

 

maybe but then change could be permanent......due to mutation.......unlike in mythology....people changing their state at their mere wish and coming back to normal self....

 

how mythology can give a way to science fiction?????

 

science fiction is often speculated on current science and technologies and future of technologies...

it gives a vision tht could be achieved in future .......but how can mythology?????

 

 

zeashan zaidi <zeashanzaidi@yahoo.com> wrote:

Friends,

Under the discussion of SF & Mythology, I want to say that every creativity made by human is always exists in the nature. It is only the presentation on which we say that it is a new creation. So if a person creates something new, it always be a new version of some old creations made by nature or human itself. The same rule is true in case of creating SF ( future ) and written mythology ( past ).

Einstein principle of conservation of mass and energy in the universe is also applicable for events of universe. Event neither be created nor destroyed, it only changes shape in different parts of universe(s). therefore there is no past event, no future event. Event which is past for we, may be a future for some other place ( or Universe ). Because time has different speeds in different universes, it may be negative somewhere, may be for antimatters that creates a negative universe where all physical laws behave opposite in the context of our universe and perhaps the past time of there will be the future time of here.

The similar rules are applicable on futuristic SF and past mythologies. Former is a change of state  of later. In this context we can take example of Arabian Nights, the tales of 1000 nights which possess a lot of fantasies, many of them are the challenges of our modern S& T. Some of that fantasies are now real ( as talking globe or automatic door ), many of them are the concept of some newer SF stories ( or Harry Potter type stories ) means that past can be a motivator of the future. At last there is no death in the universe, it is only a change of state.

Thank You  

Zeashan Zaidi

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Anant jee

Mythology is ofcourse SF of its time.

May be it is SF of its future also.

 But it is certainly much more than SF, deep philosophy of life runs through the arteries of Indian mythology.  In our mythology human behaviour is more important than its SF aspect.

VMT

---

From: "anant deshpande" <apd1942@...>
Reply-To: indiansciencefiction@...
To: indiansciencefiction@...
Subject: RE: [indiansciencefiction] Past Is Dead
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 16:16:47 +0530

VMT,

To me Mythology is SF of that time.

A.P.Deshpande

>From: "Vishwa Mohan Tiwari" <onevishwa@hotmail.com>
>Reply-To: indiansciencefiction@yahoogroups.co.in
>To: indiansciencefiction@yahoogroups.co.in
>Subject: RE: [indiansciencefiction] Past Is Dead
>Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 00:11:13 -0700
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>FRiends,
>
>I must clarify that I am not, as a rule, personal in my comments of SF, my
>remarks are generally and intellectually aplicable .
>
>I am glad that a discussion has been generated.
>
>At least in this forum criticising should not be connected wih likes and
>dislikes.
>
>Another point must be made: In human behaviour and therefore in expression
>no statement should be treated as absolute, unless specifically stated to
>be so.
>
>When I said let us use seeds in mythological stories for our SF, I meant
>that those seeds should be nurtured by our knowledge of latest science and
>our imagination. Further if I recommend use of mytholgy, I am definitely
>not restricting the writer to mythology, all other venues are open.
>
>SF cannot and should not be written without the knowledge of latest
>relevant science and tech. Using Mythology to me does not mean restricting
>to mythology, indeed, it is a take off point, from the past in to future.
>
>To prove that our rishies knew S&T far ahead of their times, is a different
>subject, however desirable, and not really SF. Mythology is only one of the
>resources for SF, and it is still productive. No scientifically trained
>mind would say that "everything" in mythology is true, but it has a
>potential of being interpreted so as to become relevance for any period,
>certainly in a socialogical sense. It is full of imagination, par
>excellance, so where is the question of it being all true.
>
>I feel that if an SF story can make a mountain fly a la Hanumaan, or create
>a fight with a demon like Sursaa, or make two ypung boys defeat a whole and
>formidable army, by using S&T, it could be a good SF. How can mountain fly
>against gravity. How can Hanumaan fly with a mountain withourt any apparent
>source of energy? Forget about proving or disproving, use it for SF with
>the science of e.g. dark matter or dark energy or whatever. Create a life
>form by combining a man and an elephant etc etc, a la Ganesh. ( it has
>become old hat by now, without Indian SF writers using it). and so on
>
>We must also go into ten dimensions, use the quantum mechanics idea of
>failure of law of causality; for this we must read latest S&T
>
>'Information is the only reality' gives ideas for SF. This also comes form
>our Upanishads, but today's scientists are munching on this seriously.
>
>Let us not discourage use of mythology, but certainly make it clear that it
>is only one of the many sources of seeds etc for SF, but it gives seeds
>only, the rest has to created with S&T. Novelty is also based on past, but
>SF must create a novel situation or incident or story.
>
>Infact one can write SF without mythology, but no one can write SF without
>good knowledge of S&T.
>
>Let us keep thinking
>
>Vishwa Mohan Tiwari
>
>
>From: "swapnil.bhartiya" <arnieswap@gmail.com>
>Reply-To: indiansciencefiction@yahoogroups.co.in
>To: indiansciencefiction@yahoogroups.co.in
>Subject: [indiansciencefiction] Past Is Dead
>Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 18:22:58 -0000
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Hi!
>
>I have great regards and respect for my past. What ever I am today -- good
>as well as bad -- it's because of that past. Critising something doesn't
>mean I dislike or discord it's existence.I am using my right to freedom of
>expression.
>
>Has anyone in the group seen or read the book/movie "Solaris"? What episode
>of ramayana will give vision like that? What incidence in our mythology
>will refer to concept of law of gravity? Inertia? Thermodynamics?
>gramaphone, rubber, alloys, wirless, electricity? Looking back at past
>won't give us visions of quatum computers, The list is so long that it
>would end up in a volume much thicker than our epics.
>
>Epics hold a revered position by many. They should remain as such.
>
>Since science and technology has made possible a lot of things so we try to
>reverse engineer the instances in mythology
>and try to prove they were scientific and we must learn from them.
>
>I discourage use of mythology in SF because that cuts short our ability to
>look beyond the glasses of our ancestors. When we talk of mythology, and I
>am not talking about factual places or events -- proving something doesn't
>exist is as easy an effort spending centuries in exploring that it did.
>
>
>There are two possibilities: 1.Everything in our mythology is true. 2.
>Every thing is fiction -- imagination.
>
>It's none of my concern if Rama or Pushpak Vimana once existed. If they
>did, then there is noting to learn from or deploy in today's SF -- it was a
>reality of the past. If we do refer to past in SF that means that our power
>to imagine has reached its epoch and we can no longer imagine and had to
>fall back upon past. How much regard will you have for a person of year
>3001 who would be referring to
>a device like typewriter and say "how advance people were back in 20th
>century? Lets learn something from typewrite" I will slap that guy and say,
>"We did our job and created best out of our times, now you do your job and
>create best of your time." If Balmiki was there he would have felt shame
>that while he imagined that the man of future will be more creative,
>actually he is good for nothing. balmiki would probably slap us for
>re-inventing the wheel.
>
>Think again, friends.
>
>Let us consider another scenario -- nothing mentioned in our mythology is
>real and is imagination of the people of those times. Now we would say --
>'Look those were graet thinkers they haad though of things like Pushpak
>Vimana, Nuclear bomb like Bramarthra etc...etc...etc...
>
>In that scenaio it's shame for me that I am so much worn that I can't
>create andything new and have to look at my past
>so that I can create something.
>
>Why no we become Tulsi and Walmike and create new ramayans and mahabharats,
>new pushpak vimans -- stuff that no one has think on yet. Lets get out of
>the rut and create a new world. Lets give the world something new and not
>the ones digged from the graves of past. Could we do that? Could we offer
>new things?
>
>We must learn to CONTRIBUTE and not only TAKE. A bad habbit we indians have
>fallen into. India is loosing its identity as a nation, its because the
>nation has stopped to evolve-- it either copies the west or recites its
>past.
>
>The future is uncertain, and I am frightened.
>
>Regards
>
>Swapnil
>
>
>
>
>
> i'm making a difference. Make every IM count for the cause of your
>choice. Join Now.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

__________________________________________________________
Voice your questions and our experts will answer them
http://content.msn.co.in/Lifestyle/AskExpert/Default01.htm

It demonstrates that SF is very much older than S&T

VMT

---

From: "arvind mishra" <arvind_drmishra@...>
Reply-To: indiansciencefiction@...
To: indiansciencefiction@...
Subject: [indiansciencefiction] Its good going now!
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 13:38:26 -0000

Dear All,
Its really good going now on scifi and Indian mythology.Thanks to
dear Swapnil and Respected AVM Tiwari ji.Picture is now getting
clearer with inputs made so far on the subject.We do not have to
forget that scifi is a literary genre and Indian literature is very
much indebtet to our mythology.It is this link which binds us firmly
to our roots.
Dr.Parul Seth is very much correct in her assessment that mythology
may act as powerul magnet in attracting common masses towards
mythologically improvised sf.To me,mythology is only a source of
retrieving splendid ideas on which sf stories could be based and
worked upon.We could just add the technology part to it.
I was reading today a very interesting story how Lord INDRA,King of
Gods was stripped of his testicles by a curse by the sage GAUTAM
when he was caught red handed in compromising position with sage's
wife AHALYA.An emmbarrased Indra then appealed to higher gods to
rescue the situation.And he was blessed with the testes of
Aries.Definately THE SCRIPTURE WRITER HAD on HIS MIND SOME SORT OF
SERGICAL SOLUTION TO THE PROBLEM.Today we are experimentng with lot
of such possibilities.Is this not some sort of predicting future?
MORE NEXT.
ARVIND

FRiends,

I must clarify that I am not, as a rule, personal in my comments of SF, my remarks are generally and intellectually aplicable .

I am glad that a discussion has been generated.

At least in this forum criticising should not be connected wih likes and dislikes.

Another point must be made: In human behaviour and therefore in expression no statement should be treated as absolute, unless specifically stated to be so.

When I said let us use seeds in  mythological stories for our SF, I meant that those seeds should be nurtured by our knowledge of latest science and our imagination. Further if I recommend use of mytholgy, I am definitely not restricting the writer to mythology, all other venues are open.

SF cannot  and should not be written without the knowledge of latest relevant science and tech.  Using Mythology to me does not mean restricting to mythology, indeed, it is a take off point, from the past in to future.

To prove that our rishies knew S&T far ahead of their times, is a different subject, however desirable, and not really SF. Mythology is only one of the resources for SF, and it is still productive. No scientifically trained mind would say that "everything"  in mythology is true, but it has a potential of being interpreted so as to become relevance for any period, certainly in a socialogical sense. It is full of imagination, par excellance, so where is the question of it being all true.

I feel that if an SF story can make a mountain fly a la Hanumaan, or create a fight with a demon like Sursaa, or make two ypung boys defeat a whole and formidable army, by using S&T, it could be a good SF. How can mountain fly against gravity. How can Hanumaan fly with a mountain withourt any apparent source of energy? Forget about proving or disproving, use it for SF with the science of e.g. dark matter or dark energy or whatever. Create a life form by combining a man and an elephant etc etc, a la Ganesh. ( it has become old hat by now, without Indian SF writers using it). and so on

We must also go into ten dimensions, use the quantum mechanics idea of failure of law of causality; for this we must read latest S&T

'Information is the only reality' gives ideas for SF. This also comes form our Upanishads, but today's scientists are munching on this seriously.

Let us not discourage use of mythology, but certainly make it clear that it is only one of the many sources of seeds etc for SF, but it gives seeds only, the rest has to created with S&T. Novelty is also based on past, but SF must create a novel situation or incident or story.

Infact one can write SF without mythology, but no one can write SF without good knowledge of S&T.

Let us keep thinking

---

From: "swapnil.bhartiya" <arnieswap@...>
Reply-To: indiansciencefiction@...
To: indiansciencefiction@...
Subject: [indiansciencefiction] Past Is Dead
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 18:22:58 -0000

Hi!

I have great regards and respect for my past. What ever I am today -- good as well as bad -- it's because of that past. Critising something doesn't mean I dislike or discord it's existence.I am using my right to freedom of expression.

Has anyone in the group seen or read the book/movie "Solaris"? What episode of ramayana will give vision like that? What incidence in our mythology will refer to concept of  law of gravity? Inertia? Thermodynamics? gramaphone, rubber, alloys, wirless, electricity? Looking back at past won't give us visions of quatum computers, The list is so long that it would end up in a volume much thicker than our epics.

Epics hold a revered position by many. They should remain as such.

Since science and technology has made possible a lot of things so we try to reverse engineer the instances in mythology and try to prove they were scientific and we must learn from them.

I discourage use of mythology in SF because that cuts short our ability to look beyond the glasses of our ancestors. When we talk of mythology, and I am not talking about factual places or events -- proving something doesn't exist is as easy an effort spending centuries in exploring that it did.


There are two possibilities: 1.Everything in our mythology is true. 2. Every thing is fiction -- imagination.

It's none of my concern if Rama or Pushpak Vimana once existed. If they did, then there is noting to learn from or deploy in today's SF -- it was a reality of the past. If we do refer to past in SF that means that our power to imagine has reached its epoch and we can no longer imagine and had to fall back upon past. How much regard will you have for a person of year 3001 who would be referring to a device like typewriter and say "how advance people were back in 20th century? Lets learn something from typewrite" I will slap that guy and say, "We did our job and created best out of our times, now you do your job and create best of your time." If Balmiki was there he would have felt shame that while he imagined that the man of future will be more creative, actually he is good for nothing. balmiki would probably slap us for re-inventing the wheel.

Think again, friends.

Let us consider another scenario -- nothing mentioned in our mythology is real and is imagination of the people of those times. Now we would say -- 'Look those were graet thinkers they haad though of things like Pushpak Vimana, Nuclear bomb like Bramarthra etc...etc...etc...

In that scenaio it's shame for me that I am so much worn that I can't create andything new and have to look at my past so that I can create something.

Why no we become Tulsi and Walmike and create new ramayans and mahabharats, new pushpak vimans  -- stuff that no one has think on yet. Lets get out of the rut and create a new world. Lets give the world something new and not the ones digged from the graves of past. Could we do that? Could we offer new things?

We must learn to CONTRIBUTE and not only TAKE. A bad habbit we indians have fallen into. India is loosing its identity as a nation, its because the nation has stopped to evolve-- it either copies the west or recites its past.

The future is uncertain, and I am frightened.

Regards

Swapnil

Dear friends,

Swapnil has again thrown a stone on the placid lake. Well young are impatient, and rearing to  move, whereas older ones think and think.

I was waiting for some comments and I am glad that there are four of them now.

All the four views are relevant to the issue.

Anant has hit the nail on the head when he asked to act and not escape.

Parul's view is encouraging.

LD Kala was attempting to console Swapnil, which was necessary. Criticism and cretion are two different genres no doubt, and remember  both need creativity. But critic follows the creator and praises, condemns, encourages both the creator and the readers. Readers at times need critics. Critic is a useful link between the reader and the creator. He is useful in a discussion like this one.

Arvind has given instances of wonderful use of our mythology by foriegners !! Obviously he finds that Indian authors are not exploiting (in a good sense) the golden mine of our mythology. Parul has recommended its use as it would also find larger readership who could connect with the story more easily. and who does not want larger readership for his writing !

Apart from this, for a reader who is not well versed in S&T, it may be difficult to understand  a fine SF story or finer points of an SF story. At best he may treat it as magic. In a mythologically based story, the story would unravel the magic that was already known to the reader, and he would be delighted and thankful. And if the reader is aware of the magic of the story, he would be doubly delighted.

 If Mythology is not appealing to someone as a source of SF stories, then it may be because he has got this idea into him from the Western world where they have gone overboard or are against it because to them science is anti religion. In the West religion has opposed science for too long. Therefore for a western SF writer who has been brought up on such a historical background, mythology is best left alone.

Mythology has valid messages for future, as I have already said earlier. Reading mythology will not only give seeds for SF stories, it would also help the reader to understand human nature better, e.g. you have more and better sympathy with dalits when you read Karna's life in Mahabhaarat, and better understanding of dynasty rule in Indian democracy when you read Dhratraashtra's and Duryodhan's lives.

SF is not only or even mainly about science, it is ultimately abour us humans, the mysterious humans. Have we understood human behaviour, despite all the research in psychology. An SF writer is also a 'psychologist' who attempts to understand and explain human behaviour so that our society becomes one 'bit' better. If we do not read, we would be reinventing wheels with all the creativity at our command. Sanskrit has produced some of the greatest classics, and most of the stories are from books like Mahabhaarat, Bhaagawat Puraan etc. Puraanas are yet another rich source for both the seeds and human nature, for SF buffs.

Friends if you have not read our mythology, you are missing the wonders of human beings.

As an SF writer you want to be read, appreciated, to improve your reader, open his imagination, improve the society, create love for science, then use the golden mine of our mythology, it does not matter a bit if you are an atheist and may be you  dislike our past.

This is to generate a deeper discussion on the subject so important for the identity of Indian SF.

Thank you for the patience,

VMT

---

From: "swapnil.bhartiya" <arnieswap@...>
Reply-To: indiansciencefiction@...
To: indiansciencefiction@...
Subject: [indiansciencefiction] Dr Parul Sheth's Comments
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 16:17:21 -0000

Deal members, please find the comments of Dr Parul Sheth on the issue of Mythology:

Dear Mishraji,

Here is what I think...

It is a controversial issue... mythology/religion and sci fi! And there is a fine line between mythology and sci fi, when to make use of mythology, how much and to what extent while writing sci fi. Mythology is good because it makes people get involved and makes sci fi reading interesting and closer to people so I feel that mythology should be used while writing sci fi however, one should be cautious not to go overboard.

with best regards

Parul


NOTE: (All comments on the post must be addressed to Ms Parul -- I am only a messenger :-)-- Swapnil

Parul,

Thanks for joinnig this group.

A.P.Deshpande

---

From: "swapnil.bhartiya" <arnieswap@...>
Reply-To: indiansciencefiction@...
To: indiansciencefiction@...
Subject: [indiansciencefiction] Dr. (Ms) Parul R. Sheth's Comments
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 16:19:33 -0000

Dear members, please find the comments of Dr. (Ms) Parul R. Sheth on the issue of Mythology:

..................................
Dear Mishraji,

Here is what I think...

It is a controversial issue... mythology/religion and sci fi! And there is a fine line between mythology and sci fi, when to make use of mythology, how much and to what extent while writing sci fi. Mythology is good because it makes people get involved and makes sci fi reading interesting and closer to people so I feel that mythology should be used while writing sci fi however, one should be cautious not to go overboard.

with best regards

Parul

.................................

NOTE: (All comments on the post must be addressed to Dr Parul -- I am only a messenger :-)-- Swapnil

I.D.Kalaji,

I agree with your views.In Marathi language,sifi is writen by many leading persons,atleast two dozen of them including Dr.Jayant Narlikar,Dr.Bal Phondke( who edited ,`It happened Tomorrow-a collection of representative sifi stories)and so on.However,yet we have to find out a good critic for sifi wrten in Marathi.

I am the Hon.Secretary of Marathi Vidnyan Parishad,This institution conducted sifi writing competition for last 37 years and those who participated in the competition and won the prizes are the leading sifi writers in Marathi today including Dr.Jayant Narlikar,Dr.Phondke and so on.And yet,we could`nt create a good critic in Marathi language for sifi.

A.P.Deshpande

---

From: ldkala <ldkala@...>
Reply-To: indiansciencefiction@...
To: indiansciencefiction@...
Subject: Re: [indiansciencefiction] I Am Sorry
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 22:56:37 -0700 (PDT)

Dear Swapnil,

There are two separate things, creating scince fiction
and writing criticism on that. Both are sepate sub
areas falling under the broad area. I agree that for
writing too ou have to be an avid reader but there is
one clear distintion for your erudite to be evident.
Whereas your creativity and knowledge of subject comes
out in your fiction, it is the critique, who brings
out his knowledge of the subject and the art form
through his pieces of criticism. A good critique may
not be a good fiction writer and the same is
applicable to the converse case.

I think when you refer to the discussion here, you
might have referred to the critique's concern because
it is he, whose discussions are replete with all
scholorly dictums.

For raising serious discussions, issues need to be
identified. Such issues should take the subject or
genre further to the uncharted frontiers.

A two article series of criticism of Indian science
fiction was published by the Indian Journal of Science
Communication in 2005. You may access these on the
link below:

www.iscos.org

Shall we not correct ourselves by saying that we did
not raise an issue which is chellenging and
contemporary enough to raise the seriousness of the
discussions aboard this group.

I agree wih Deshpande ji that some one should take
initiative.

Please do express your reactions.

Regards,

L D Kala

--- "swapnil.bhartiya" <arnieswap@gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear Friends,
>
> I am sorry for the tone, but when I joined the group
> I was expecting
> some serious discussions on the panel of some of the
> senior members --
> some
> age wise and some experience wise, and some young
> but very talented
> people.
>
> But I am noticing there are no serious discussions
> on the forum
> anymore. There is no originality, there is no
> professionalism and
> there is no expertise over the subject -- and at
> times there are
> forwarded message which I BLOCK on my personal mail.
>
> I am sorry but I strongly discourage such things --
> and may be that is
> the reason Indian science fiction is still treated
> as child fiction,
> and if some body some writes something we blow our
> own trumpet without
> even have it reviewed to see how good is it.
>
> I am sorry, but I don't have that much of time to
> waste. I was
> expecting to spend some quality time here and share
> with my friends
> mine and their experiences.
>
> I am utterly disappointed, given there are some very
> good science
> communicators on the group.
>
> At times in our isolation we keep on re-inventing
> the wheel. When I
> was working with famous writer Asghar Wajahat for
> Hans magazine he
> told me a story:
>
> "There was a scientist who wanted to invent
> something new. He closed
> himself in his lab for 20 years. 20 years later he
> came out shouting
> that he had ivented a maching that will change the
> we people travel.
>
> You know what was his invention? He had invented the
> steam engine. And
> he didn't know that the steam engine was invented 18
> years ago..."
>
> Here sitting in our own labs, we are inventing steam
> engines.
>
> I am an atheist, and in situation like these, I have
> to other option
> but to pray to GOD -- Indian science-fiction is now
> "RAM BHAROSE"
>
> Most of the Indian science writers live in their own
> solitude. I doubt
> most of the members of the group would have read
> Marquez's "100 years
> of solitude"
>
> In the last line of the book he writes: "races
> condemned to one
> hundred years of solitude did not have a second
> opportunity on earth!"
>
> Regards
>
> Swapnil
>
>

__________________________________________________________
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Dear Friends,

Dr.Jayant Narlikar,famous scientist and sifi writer has used mythological reference in his scfi stories.

According to me everything old is not worth throwing unless we consider it on the basis of modern science,art,sculpture,psycology,phylosophy and so on.

A.P.Deshpande

---

From: "arvind mishra" <arvind_drmishra@...>
Reply-To: indiansciencefiction@...
To: indiansciencefiction@...
Subject: [indiansciencefiction] SF CRITICISM
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 12:22:38 -0000

Dear friends,
Should we welcome the newly raised issue of scifi criticism or let the
earlier one, mythology and sf take its spontaneous an logical finish.

I just fail to understand why this issue is not attracting the
desired attention of audience.Is this because it lacks some
seriousness as hinted by my dear friend Mr.Kala ji or it is just that
many of us are not much aware of the significance of the issue.

Indian mythology in my view the area which could only make our scifi
ie Indian scifi distinct and noticeable at international level. Its
not for nothing that indian scifi has already attracted the attention
of many western warlords of pop science and scifi like Carl
sagan,Issac Asimov,Aldous huxley and many others.

Carl Sagan has all praise for and advocates that young writers must
peep into Indian mythology to get original ideas. "Soma" pill is there
in 'Brave new world'of Huxley and the idea is again from our mytology.

One has to read 'The last answer'by Asimov to appreciate the glory of
our mighty mythology. The concept of NIRAVAN-the ultimate attainmnt is
beautifully described in the story. This is ironical that we ourselves
just remain unaware of our heritage and often go on aping the west. I
most humbly appeal to all of you once and again to please reconsider
the topic for a serios discussion.
Regards
Arvind

Thank you for the event in APJ Kalam's life as a student. It shows what mettle he is made of.

It is no doubt a wonderful event which shows the the power of reasoning and conviction, although some flaws can be found in it. The faith is important for life, undoubtedly. The professor was not being scientific either in his questions or his answers.

Science does work on faith, e.g. the faith that they can unravel the mystery of the Universe, that the law of causality holds. These are faiths.

 However it is not correct to say that the process of 'Evlution' cannot bee seen and measured. It has been done a few times. Please read the book -'Darwin's Finches'. The researchers have continuously worked for dozens of years in the Galapagos Islands and proven it. I read it some years back and have forgotten the name of the author who researched along with his wife and other scientists. But I remember the experiments that they conducted and how did they measured and proved.

Existence of brain and its functions have been proven beyond doubt; so also the connections between the brain and human behaviour;therefore a student could say what has been said, but today a grown up Kalam would not say all of that. He would be more scientific and yet keeping his faith.

Let us have correct understanding of faith and of empirical science.

Vishwa Mohan Tiwari

---

From: zeashan zaidi <zeashanzaidi@...>
Reply-To: indiansciencefiction@...
To: indian science <indiansciencefiction@...>
Subject: [indiansciencefiction] Fwd: Must read
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 23:12:23 -0700 (PDT)

Note: forwarded message attached.

 

 

zeashan zaidi

---

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---

From: aley hashim <aleyhashim@...>
To: zeashanzaidi@...
Subject: Must read
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 13:41:25 +0000 (GMT)

An Interesting Conversation -- Must Read

An atheist professor of philosophy speaks to his class on the problem science has with God, The Almighty. He asks one of his new students to stand and.....

Prof : So you believe in God?
Student: Absolutely, sir.

Prof: Is God good?
Student: Sure.

Prof: Is God all-powerful?
Student: Yes.

Prof: My brother died of cancer even though he prayed to God to heal him. Most of us would attempt to help others who are ill. But God didn't. How is this God good then? Hmm?
Student is silent.

Prof: You can't answer, can you?
Let's start again, young fellow. Is God good?
Student: Yes.

Prof: Is Satan good?
Student: No.

Prof: Where does Satan come from?
Student: From...God...

Prof: That's right. Tell me son, is there evil in this world?
Student: Yes.

Prof: Evil is everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything. Correct?
Student: Yes.

Prof: So who created evil?
Student does not answer.

Prof: Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things exist in the world, don't they?
Student: Yes, sir.

Prof: So, who created them?
Student has no answer.

Prof: Science says you have 5 senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Tell me, son...Have you ever seen God?
Student: No, sir.

Prof: Tell us if you have ever heard your God?
Student: No, sir.

Prof: Have you ever felt your God, tasted your God, smelt your God? Have you ever had any sensory perception of God for that matter?
Student: No, sir. I'm afraid I haven't.

Prof: Yet you still believe in Him?
Student: Yes.

Prof: According to empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your GOD doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son?
Student: Nothing. I only have my faith.

Prof: Yes Faith. And that is the problem science has.

Now the student said can I ask something to you Professor.

Student: Professor, is there such a thing as heat?
Prof: Yes.

Student : And is there such a thing as cold?
Prof: Yes.

Student: No sir. There isn't.

(The lecture theatre becomes very quiet with this turn of events.)

Student: Sir, you can have lots of heat, even more heat, superheat, mega heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat. But we don't have anything called cold. We can hit 458 degrees below zero which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold. Cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it.

(There is pin-drop silence in the lecture theatre.)

Student: What about darkness, Professor? Is there such a thing as darkness?
Prof: Yes. What is night if there isn't darkness?

Student: You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is the absence of something.
You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light... But if you have no light constantly, you have nothing and its called darkness, isn't it? In reality, darkness isn't. If it were you would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn't you?
Prof: So what is the point you are making, young man?

Student: Sir, my point is your philosophical premise is flawed.
Prof: Flawed? Can you explain how?

Student: Sir, you are working on the premise of duality. You argue there is life and then there is death, a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science can't even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life: just the absence of it. Now tell me, Professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?


Prof: If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, yes, of course, I do.


Student: Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?


(The Professor shakes his head with a smile, beginning to realize where the argument is going.)

Student: Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you not a scientist but a preacher?

(The class is in uproar.)

Student: Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the Professor's brain?


(The class breaks out into laughter.)

Student: Is there anyone here who has ever heard the Professor's brain, felt it, touched or smelt it? No one appears to have done so. So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain, sir. With all due respect, sir, how do we then trust your lectures, sir?

(The room is silent. The professor stares at the student, his face unfathomable.)

Prof: I guess you'll have to take them on faith, son.
Student: That is it sir... The link between man & god is FAITH. That is all that keeps things moving & alive. .


WANT TO KNOW WHO THAT STUDENT WAS?

This is a true story, and the student was none other than

 

 DR. A.P.J. Abdul Kalam

   President of INDIA

---

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Swapnil,

I understand that anger is one of the qualities and generally associated with youngsters.

If you feel that the present discussion was`nt measuring  up to your expection,you have to take up the leadership and see that in n no.of years,it improves.Runnig away from the scene is a mere escapism.

A.P.Deshpande

---

From: "swapnil.bhartiya" <arnieswap@...>
Reply-To: indiansciencefiction@...
To: indiansciencefiction@...
Subject: [indiansciencefiction] I Am Sorry
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 13:54:39 -0000

Dear Friends,

I am sorry for the tone, but when I joined the group I was expecting
more serious discussions on the panel of some of the serious -- some
age wise and some experience wise, and some young but very talented
people -- being young doesn't mean the person should be throw in the
backyard -- what is the age of Jumpa Lahri?

But I am noticing there are no serious discussions on the forum
anymore. There is no originality, there is no professionalism and
there is no expertise over the subject -- and at times there are
forwarded message which I BLOCK on my personal mail.

I am sorry but I strongly discourage such things -- and may be that is
the reason Indian science fiction is still treated as child fiction,
and if some body some writes something we blow our own trumpet without
even have it reviewed to see how good is it.

I am sorry, but I don't have that much of time to waste. I was
expecting to spend some quality time here and share with my friends
mine and their experiences.

I am utterly disappointed, given there are some very good science
communicators on the group.

At times in our isolation we keep on re-inventing the wheel. When I
was working with famous writer Asghar Wajahat for Hans magazine he
told me a story:

"There was a scientist who wanted to invent something new. He closed
himself in his lab for 20 years. 20 years later he came out shouting
that he had ivented a maching that will change the we people travel.

You know what was his invention? He had invented the steam engine. And
he didn't know that the steam engine was invented 18 years ago..."

Here sitting in our own labs, we are inventing steam engines.

I am an atheist, and in situation like these, I have to other option
but to pray to GOD -- Indian science-fiction is now "RAM BHAROSE"

Most of the Indian science writers live in their own solitude.
I doubt most of the members of the group would have read Marquez's
"100 years of solitude"

In the last line of the book he writes: "races condemned to one
hundred years of solitude did not have a second opportunity on earth!"

Regards

Swapnil

Friends,

Refer to my previous  msg giving my tel nos. Mobile no. has a misprint

 tne corrected no is 09350040837

Dhanyawaad

VMT

---

From: "Vishwa Mohan Tiwari" <onevishwa@...>
Reply-To: indiansciencefiction@...
To: indiansciencefiction@...
Subject: RE: [indiansciencefiction] Re: Group Directory being Created
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 21:30:12 -0700

Swapnil jee

My address is

E 143 Sector 21, NOIDA 201301

Tel is 0120 4317417,  and mobile is 0935040837

E mails are

onevishwa@hotmail.com

and onevishwa@gmail.com

For more details I am attaching my brief CV

Thank you

VMT

 

Vishwa Mohan Tiwari

---

From: "swapnil.bhartiya" <arnieswap@gmail.com>
Reply-To: indiansciencefiction@yahoogroups.co.in
To: indiansciencefiction@yahoogroups.co.in
Subject: [indiansciencefiction] Re: Group Directory being Created
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 17:58:58 -0000

Dear Tiwari Ji,

No, I don't have your contact data, could you please update it in the
option column to the left? If any difficult, send it to me through
mail and I will update the info.

I have the same request with all other friends.

Regards

Swapnil

---

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><< VMTiwariBio-data(inenglish).doc >>

Mitro,

ek sunahalaa Awasar. LD kala kaa GM tecnology par badhiyaa laykh.

Mayree tippanee bhee daykhayn.

Apanee pratikriyaa bhee dayn.

1. The title of the artical is wonderful, also because its image communicates the horrors of

GM Tech very effectively.

2. Laws and regulations are always 'PERFECT'. But it doesnot take a millisecond for the capable to break them, otherwise we should have had a criminal free society long ago. Laws cannot stop the crimes but can reduce their numbers and catch the culprits, sometime. It does not mean that laws should not be made.

3. This case of GMTech is different, a new dark cave we are entering. There are big gains, but there are bigger risks. If a few can break the law, then they can cause deadly havoc to already trouble4 world.

4. We are following blindly the West in matters of S&T, and we will follow on this road also and will suffer like we are suffering with Bt Cotton. We have no choice as we are always lagging behind in S&T.

5. But here is a good subject for SF writers - What happens when you enlarge a mouse into an elephant and vice versa? Or similar subjects. I know Frankenstein was the first of this genre, and more have come but the possibilities are galore and the subject is touching our life here and now.

Congratulations LD kala.

Besrt wishes and best of luck to India.

 

Vishwa Mohan Tiwari

---

From: ldkala <ldkala@...>
To: Anupam Sharma1 <anupamacharya@ gmail.com>, Anupam Sharma2 <anupamacharya2000@yahoo.com>, Mahabir Bhandari <mahabir.bhandari@ gmail.com>, "Dr. Ram Prasad Bhatt" <r.p.bhatt@...>, "Dr. Ram Prasad 1 Bhatt" <Ram.Prasad.Bhatt@... >, "Dr. Suneel Deambi" <sdeambi@airtelbroadband.in>, "M. Dr. Hota" < hota@...>, "M. Dr. Hota1" <hota_m@...>, Vivek Kulkarni <vivacool@...>, Vivek1 Kulkarni < vivek.kulkarni@eurekaforbes.co.in>, Kailash Nautiyal <kailashnautiyal@ yahoo.co.uk>, "Dr. Hemraj Pal" <hemraj_pal@yahoo.co.uk>, Pallav Purohit <pallav1976@yahoo. co.in>, Vijay RS Rawat <rawatvrs@...>, Vijay RS1 Rawat <rawatvrs@...>, Sanjeev Kumar < sanjeeviit@...>, "Sanjeev Kumar Dr." <dr_sanjeev_kr@yahoo.com>, "Vijai K Srivastava Dr." <vijaiksri@...>, "Vishwa Mohan Tiwari AVM)" <onevishwa@...>, "S. S. Verma" < ssverma123@rediffmail.com>, Marc Wittenberg <haeupti@...>, ldkala@...
Subject: Artilce on Biosafety from Indian Express
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 01:28:29 -0700 (PDT)

---

Live Search Maps – find all the local information you need, right when you need it.

Friends,

Hope you enjoy reading this article by me.

ldkala

PS: alternatly you can find it on the following link:

http://www.newindpress.com/sunday/sundayitems.asp?id=SED20070323071118&eTitle=Issues&rLink=0

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Swapnil jee

My address is

E 143 Sector 21, NOIDA 201301

Tel is 0120 4317417,  and mobile is 0935040837

E mails are

onevishwa@...

and onevishwa@...

For more details I am attaching my brief CV

Thank you

VMT

---

From: "swapnil.bhartiya" <arnieswap@...>
Reply-To: indiansciencefiction@...
To: indiansciencefiction@...
Subject: [indiansciencefiction] Re: Group Directory being Created
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 17:58:58 -0000

Dear Tiwari Ji,

No, I don't have your contact data, could you please update it in the
option column to the left? If any difficult, send it to me through
mail and I will update the info.

I have the same request with all other friends.

Regards

Swapnil

Dear Friends

The discussion among our group on SF is going well and is encouraging. I am sure Swapnil has said what he has said to generate a discussion. He threw a stone into the placid lake of SF firends, and it has generated waves.

First of all, let us be clear 'mythology' is not only past, no not at all.

 Mythology is true for all the time.
The experiences expressed in Mythology are primal to humans, they come from his deepest being and come in a language that is also capable of being interpreted in different times as per the situation in that time.

Language of Mythology is metaphors of the most imaginative order. It is our imagination that may be limited in finding meanings and solutions, but they are there.

What is there in Mahabhaarat, is there in the world, and vice versa. Also what is not in mahabhaarat, is not there in the world !!

Dont be under any illusion,  we are no more intelligent than those of Mahabhaarat period, may be less, certainly less healthy.

When Ram is found to be same in all the universes in all the periods (refer Arvind Mishra's letter), what does it mean ?

It ofcourse means that the God is the same in all the periods, he is only one who does not change as he is beyond change.

It means more that that.

It also means that if man wants to live in Raamraajya, i.e. happily without any criminals and poverty etc afflictions, then he has to follow the life of Raama, the values practiced by him, the love for all in him etc. This is eternally true. He is an ideal for all the time to come. Noe imagine a future and project Raam there and see a wonderful SF.

VMT

---

From: "arvind mishra" <arvind_drmishra@...>
Reply-To: indiansciencefiction@...
To: indiansciencefiction@...
Subject: [indiansciencefiction] Mythology:the contemporary sf !
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2007 06:40:43 -0000

Dear All,
Swapnil has arrived with his definite views followed closely but
against the motion[what is put forth by dear Swapnil] by Respected
Anant ji.Here I fully endorse the views of Anant ji while wishing to
add something more from my side.
I wish to go straight to the subject without elaborating it any
more.The face of mythology which fascinate me most is its superbly
imaginative stuff and its capability of making assumptions/predictions
which more often than not just appear akin to sf.
Is not it amazing that many predictions made by our ancestral
gaints in ancient scriptures and epics are becoming realities of
today.COMPARE 'Sudarshan chakra' with today's guided missiles','NIYOG'
WITH its modern counterpart-The artificial insemination','birth of
KAURAVAS and numerous identical forms of RAKTABIJA[MAHISHASHUR] WITH
THAT of todays cloning technology and so on.Many of such ancient
conjectures though still far from being realized but who knows
may see the light of day sooner or later,thanks to the pace of
our S&T.
THE 'Mythical Wishinng tree[kalpvriksha]' and Kamdhenu,[the mythical
wishing animal' are such far fetched ideas but look very similar to
'super natural creatures'of science fantasies and descriptions of
aliens by some sf authors.
And here is a real mind boggler, one for dear Swapnil.When the
mythological creature KAKBHUSUNDI ENTERS THE STOMACH of CHILD RAMA
much to his amazement finds many universes, not just one there! BUT
lord RAMA remains same and identicaleverywhere and in all the
parellel[!] universes despite other creations and creatures being
quite different.Plaese refer to UttarKand of Ram CHaritmanas by
Goswami Tulasidas to read yourself such a bewildering
description.Today we are talking about multiverse.And
take another one,Puspak Viman ,the mythical areoplane where a seat
remains always vacant follows the orders of Rama to go back to its
master Kuber when Victorious Rama lands on Ayodhya with feelings of
HARSHA and VISHAD[HAPPINESS AND AGONY] as he could do some work for
Rama and now being ordered to leave him.A thinking machine indeed a
marvel.Hey! artificial machines are coming now!These are just few
examples-the tip of iceberg/Indian mythology.
Swapnil please ponder over again and reconsider your stand on the
topic.I invite members of the group to enrich the debate by their
prudent inputs.
regards
arvind