Dear Docs, medicos, friends of ARCHEOLOGY, GENOLOGY, Mythology, science and
History.

DNA forum discussion on origin of civilisation and their indian origin

Kutch Science Foundation KUTCH: timings of Budhist wrongly stated as 4000BC or
even 4000 years ago - time of budhist do not go back beyond 2500 years with
history pf ancestry listing names of king and kingdome

http://74.125.77.132/search?q=cache:VTXn2-X5BhUJ:dna-forums.org/index.php%3Fshow\
topic%3D4912%26st%3D120%26start%3D120+chitral+kalash+indian+genes&hl=en&ct=clnk&\
cd=12&gl=uk

I just visted your site of DNA forum, read comments and seen a partial correct -
partial incomplete becouse of lack of full linguistic and archeological
experience , eg KUBERA ws Brother Of RAWAN driven out by his younger brother
RAWAN - we can trace whole ancestry from original sansrit RAMAYANA, their
fathers grand fathare etc. similarly KALSH CHITRAL - most of have not visited
nor studied they are just reading from internet source. but need to understand
all festivals, customs, language etc. i have pictures of INDRA carved in
mountains if those kalash velly. CHAUMAS - 4 months of farming. chitral is not
written with "S" but pronounced "s" as "Shetral" mean FIELD in KHOWAR lenguage.
they worship SHETRA pal as we do as KHETAR pal, geneticaly they are Indo Aryans
& many more
FULL DETAILED DISCUSSION BELOW QUOTE (parasar @ Nov 13 2008, 11:24 PM) Kubera is
a mythological personage from Ceylon. He left Ceylon for Hataka or Tibet. I
don't know if there is any relation to Kubha, but there is some connection to
Guha or cave. The inhabitants of Ceylon prior to the migration of Sinhalas were
called Yakkas/Yaksha/Raksha. Kubera was their chief. When he moved to Tibet the
Yakkas moved there too.
One of the Shiva forms is called Hataka-esvara – the Siva of (the land of the
Kushanas?) the western Tibet table land mentioned in Mahabharata – “After taking
the country called Hataka, governed by the Guhyakas.”
I think Guhayakas means cave-dwellers the same as Guhas/guhilla. Their chief in
Buddhist texts is Kubera which harkens to the ku-beiros of the greek mythology.
The chief deity of the Nagar Brahmans is Hatakesvara.
The Ramayana has the story of Kubera, the king of the Yakshas, who was driven
out of Lanka by Ravana. Similarly, the Buddhist annals speak of a King Vessavana
or Kubera who moved to the northern quarter with his Yakkas.

Then it is likely so that Western Tibet is related to the Kushans, is that
correct? There is a people called Ladakh / Ladakhi in Tibet and India. It would
have been interesting to know if they were descendants of the Kushans. Like the
Kalash, the Ladakh and the Kalash seem to have quite similar cultural
traditions. Do you have any idea if there are or have been Buddhist traditions
in Kalash?
May be the Viking Eirik Raude got his red-hair genes from there. Kasmir
http://mattwrigley.com/images/india/redbeard.jpg
Nomad Himachal Pradesh,
Indiahttp://img1.photographersdirect.com/img/15...m/pd1501059.jpg
Without knowing much about this part of the world, it seems from what you are
writing and from what I have read that the Kushan have been worshippers of Shiva
(therefore Saivas) and that they are closely related to the Nagars (worshippers
of serpents). There are possible parallels to Kubera or Jambala in the deities
called “Jomala” or “Jumala” in the Nordic and in Estonia. Even if texts from the
1600-1700eds (e.g. Schefferus, Frankfurt, 1673) tell that the Lapons, the
Finlanders and the Estonians worshipped these deities these traditions might
have been a heritage of a common culture before there were declared nations and
national state borders. It might have been a heritage of the Goths that were
close to and likely mixed with people from all these areas. The Lapons as he
calls them are the first people ofFinland, Sweden, Norway and western Russia.
Possible also in Estonia.

QUOTE (parasar @ Nov 13 2008, 11:24 PM) Runes may have progressed with the
Alani-Hun combination. This group was a mix between the Sarmatians and the
Turks. That Runic is related to a script in India - possible, but there is very
little evidence of writing in India from that period.
Couple of other theories, implying that Indics and Vikings may have shared a
common region:
“Die Serren sind ohne Zweifel die Seren, die mit den Hindus weit von Osten
herkamen und in der Stadt Tanais [Don] oder im Indischen Hafen (portus sindicus)
[Kuban Delta]”Reise auf dem Caspischen Meere und in dem by Carl Eduard von
Eichwald - 1838
"Asgard (As-Dag) in the Kuban delta, near Taman"A History of Russia By George
Vernadsky, Michael Karpovich

The Kushan in India were connected to the Turkish tribes and that is a much more
likely origin for the Issyk script than the Scythians.
http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/30_...ionEn.htm#Issyk
The Issyk is an Old Turkic script.
The Script of the Goths:
(IMG:http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m252/aprerogative/The_Alphabet_of_the_Ge\
ats-OlausM-1.jpg)
Gothic Script: http://www.ancientscripts.com/gothic.html
Here is a guy that compares the Gökturk scripts with the Old Futhark and find
them related.http://www.antalya-ws.com/futhark/
About the Tanais and Don etc. it would have been very interesting if you posted
URL’s to books, articles and photos that is evident about the connections
between the Black Sea areas and the Viking culture.
NB! These people could only have been a fraction of the ancestors of those who
later became part of the Viking culture.
In this site you can read about a Norwegian researcher that studied the Hindu
Kush and Indian areas in the mid 1900eds. He also describes a rich and specific
woodcarving tradition performed by a certain “Bari” caste.
http://www.chart.ac.uk/chart2001/papers/witek.html

I do not know anything about him, but whoever he was there seems to be a huge
material of photos and texts available. The URL of The Norway National Library
Website does not work well, however it might be possible to find out more about
his work in on this issues:
www.nb.no/baser/morgenstierne Aromagician View Member Profile Nov 17
2008, 04:16 AM Post #122
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I looked with interest the discussion that the svastika and the Labyrinth were
Indian in origin. when in fact there is early writings that talk of the
labyrinth in Egypt. see
[email="http://www.amazeingart.com/seven-wonders/egyptian-labyrinth.html"]here[/\
email] Of course it is well known in the Greek myths.
The svastika also shows it head early on in Armenia/ early Mesopotamiasee this
site
here[email="http://www.angelfire.com/hi/Azgaser/swastika.html"]http://www.angelf\
ire.com/hi/Azgaser/swastika.html[/email]Didnt one of the posts say one of the
shared haplogroups was with Armenia?
Joseph Campbells book oriental Mythology highlights a lot of the similarities
between the Egyptian and Indian cultures and religions.
The large ships found in Egypt with crusted barnacles, showed that they had been
at sea for at least 2-3 months. So could be another source of the spreading of
cultural symbols.
The travel between ancient people has left many remnants behind. That is what
makes it so interesting with Dna, to try and sort out who went where, or more
accurately settled where.
ilmari kivinen View Member Profile Nov 17 2008, 04:27 AM Post #123
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This reminds me of the owner's marks used in Finland.
http://www.genealogia.fi/faq/faq030e.htm
Several of the known marks are of my ancestors. DMXX View Member
Profile Nov 17 2008, 04:41 AM Post #124
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Group: MembersPosts: 79Joined: 14-September 08Member No.: 3,907

QUOTE (Petrina @ Nov 16 2008, 09:32 PM) May be the Viking Eirik Raude got his
red-hair genes from there. Kasmir
http://mattwrigley.com/images/india/redbeard.jpg
Nomad Himachal Pradesh,
Indiahttp://img1.photographersdirect.com/img/15...m/pd1501059.jpg
Hmm... To me, it looks like they've dyed their beards with Henna. If their hair
really was a ginger colour, we'd see it from the roots going all the way to
their tips.
Take a look at these pictures for comparison:
Henna beards
http://gallery.photo.net/photo/6211160-lg.jpghttp://www.historycommons.org/event\
s-image...81722-17119.jpghttp://lh3.ggpht.com/_7QZssxHN1x8/RbYWeyTl...+2006+(716\
).JPGhttp://farm1.static.flickr.com/85/272008502_7e65499346.jpg
Naturally ginger/red
beardshttp://www.redbeardstikitours.com/user/bin...e_thumbnail.jpghttp://photo.m\
onkey.net/images/20060424192916_redbeard.jpghttp://farm2.static.flickr.com/1272/\
980597...236499d.jpg?v=0http://resurrectionsanmarcos.org/youth/wp-...0/red-beard\
.jpg
The pictures speak for themselves, really. The application of henna in
Middle-Eastern and Central/South Asian cultures is pretty widespread, especially
in the rural areas of southern Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan and regions of India.
However, that isn't to say that all people with hair that's apparently ginger
have applied henna; I'm currently residing in a Middle-Eastern country with a
very high population of labourers from the Indian subcontinent, and I do
interact with them on a daily basis. And, true ginger hair, without the presence
of henna, is actually there. However, it isn't the predominant hair colour
amongst those individuals; I usually see black hair making up most of their head
hair, with general scattering of ginger here and there.But, to be quite honest,
I've seen more Levant Arabs and Turks with true ginger hair than South Asians,
so from personal experience, I'm unsure over it's relevance. Norr View
Member Profile Nov 17 2008, 06:58 AM Post #125
Newbie
Group: MembersPosts: 24Joined: 13-November 08Member No.: 4,484

I've wondered my DNA Tribes autosomal matches in north of India:
Petrina View Member Profile Nov 17 2008, 07:47 AM Post #126
Member
Group: MembersPosts: 87Joined: 2-August 07Member No.: 1,060mtDNA Haplogroup: U5

QUOTE (Aromagician @ Nov 17 2008, 05:16 AM) I looked with interest the
discussion that the svastika and the Labyrinth were Indian in origin. when in
fact there is early writings that talk of the labyrinth in Egypt. see
[email="http://www.amazeingart.com/seven-wonders/egyptian-labyrinth.html"]here[/\
email] Of course it is well known in the Greek myths.
The svastika also shows it head early on in Armenia/ early Mesopotamiasee this
site
here[email="http://www.angelfire.com/hi/Azgaser/swastika.html"]http://www.angelf\
ire.com/hi/Azgaser/swastika.html[/email]Didnt one of the posts say one of the
shared haplogroups was with Armenia?
Joseph Campbells book oriental Mythology highlights a lot of the similarities
between the Egyptian and Indian cultures and religions.
The large ships found in Egypt with crusted barnacles, showed that they had been
at sea for at least 2-3 months. So could be another source of the spreading of
cultural symbols.
The travel between ancient people has left many remnants behind. That is what
makes it so interesting with Dna, to try and sort out who went where, or more
accurately settled where.

The oldest king mentioned in relation to the Egyptian labyrinth at Amenemhat III
(about 1860 -1814 BCE) found by a researchers 11,5 miles from pyramid Hawara in
Faioum, Egypt. It seems like that was a complex building.
It seems like the European labyrinths are younger, possible Iron Age and
medieval period.
However the Indian might be older than all of them, there are controversies if
the oldest labyrinth petroglyph found in Goa is from 2500 BCE. From what I can
remember the labyrinth symbols are also found in findings from the Harappan
civilization. I will post a link later.
It is surprising that they used ships as transport so very early, I have read
that they had developed tidal docks as about 2500 BCE in the present Gujarat
area.

“A slight examination is sufficient to overturn this hypothesis. In the first
place, the triskelion, which is the foundation of this hypothesis, made its
first appearance on the coins of Lycia. But this appearance was within what is
called the first period of coinage, to wit, between 700 and 480 B. C., and it
did not become settled until the second, and even the third period, 280 to 240
B. C., when it migrated to Sicily.But the Swastika had already appeared in
Armenia, on the hill of Hissarlik, in the terraniares of northern Italy, and on
the hut-urns of southern Italy many hundred, possibly a thousand or more, years
prior to that time. Count d’Alviella, in his plate 3 (see Chart I, p. 794),
assigns it to a period of the fourteenth or thirteenth century B. C., with an
unknown and indefinite past behind it. It is impossible that a symbol which
first appeared in 480 B. C. could have been the ancestor of one which appeared
in 1400 or 1300 B. C., nearly a thousand years before.” End of quote from the
following book: http://www.archive.org/details/theswastika00wilsuoft
I did not find any other serious sources that confirmed the theory of Grigor
Ariyatsi that mentioned that it was 7000 – 5000 BCE in Armenia. If you have any
official sites confirming this theory it would be kind if you will post it. As
you see from the book, it tells that these symbols in Europe were 1400 - 1300
BCE.
The swastika sign was found on seals in the Indus Valley civilization, Ravi
River Phase that is dated from 3500 BCE (controversial) or for certain from 3300
BCE. http://www.crystalinks.com/induscivilization.html
http://www.harappa.com/har/har0.html
This makes the Indus valley civilization older than the first dynasty of Menes
(Narmer) in Egypt about 3100 BCE. Likely these cultures must have existed as
parallel civilization.
What is the date of the large ships found that had been for several months at
sea?
About genes, what haplogroups connects the people of India / Pakistan and Egypt
today or via ancient DNA finds? Petrina View Member Profile Nov 17
2008, 08:12 AM Post #127
Member
Group: MembersPosts: 87Joined: 2-August 07Member No.: 1,060mtDNA Haplogroup: U5

QUOTE (ilmari kivinen @ Nov 17 2008, 05:27 AM) This reminds me of the owner's
marks used in Finland.
http://www.genealogia.fi/faq/faq030e.htm
Several of the known marks are of my ancestors.
Not surprising that there are such similarities since the Futhark was used here
in the Nordic areas. I do not know if this meansthat the owner marks in Finland
are older or not, but it might be an indication.
Some of my ancestors in Sweden and Finland had a turned US dollar symbol; it is
clearly not inspired from the furhark (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I
remember that one because it was different. We call such owners marks Bumerke in
Norway. http://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bumerke DMXX View Member Profile
Nov 17 2008, 08:29 AM Post #128
Member
Group: MembersPosts: 79Joined: 14-September 08Member No.: 3,907

QUOTE (Petrina @ Nov 17 2008, 08:47 AM) About genes, what haplogroups connects
the people of India / Pakistan and Egypt today or via ancient DNA finds?
In order of decreasing frequency, here are the Y-DNA Hgs in modern-day Egypt (J.
R. Luis et al.: The Levant versus the Horn of Africa: Evidence for Bidirectional
Corridors of Human Migrations):
36.7% - E1b1b32% - J8.8% - G8.2% - T4.1% - R1b2.8% - E1b1a2.7% - R1a0.7% - I0% -
N
The only Hgs that seem to have a linkage between Egypt and India/Pakistan are G
and R1a; I'm assuming most of the Js in Egypt are J1, so J2's not a candidate,
in my opinion. Seeing how R1a's frequency is so low over there, maybe G's the
one you're looking for? Petrina View Member Profile Nov 17 2008,
08:44 AM Post #129
Member
Group: MembersPosts: 87Joined: 2-August 07Member No.: 1,060mtDNA Haplogroup: U5

QUOTE (DMXX @ Nov 17 2008, 05:41 AM) Hmm... To me, it looks like they've dyed
their beards with Henna. If their hair really was a ginger colour, we'd see it
from the roots going all the way to their tips.
Take a look at these pictures for comparison:
Henna beards
http://gallery.photo.net/photo/6211160-lg.jpghttp://www.historycommons.org/event\
s-image...81722-17119.jpghttp://lh3.ggpht.com/_7QZssxHN1x8/RbYWeyTl...+2006+(716\
).JPGhttp://farm1.static.flickr.com/85/272008502_7e65499346.jpg
Naturally ginger/red
beardshttp://www.redbeardstikitours.com/user/bin...e_thumbnail.jpghttp://photo.m\
onkey.net/images/20060424192916_redbeard.jpghttp://farm2.static.flickr.com/1272/\
980597...236499d.jpg?v=0http://resurrectionsanmarcos.org/youth/wp-...0/red-beard\
.jpg
The pictures speak for themselves, really. The application of henna in
Middle-Eastern and Central/South Asian cultures is pretty widespread, especially
in the rural areas of southern Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan and regions of India.
However, that isn't to say that all people with hair that's apparently ginger
have applied henna; I'm currently residing in a Middle-Eastern country with a
very high population of labourers from the Indian subcontinent, and I do
interact with them on a daily basis. And, true ginger hair, without the presence
of henna, is actually there. However, it isn't the predominant hair colour
amongst those individuals; I usually see black hair making up most of their head
hair, with general scattering of ginger here and there.But, to be quite honest,
I've seen more Levant Arabs and Turks with true ginger hair than South Asians,
so from personal experience, I'm unsure over it's relevance.

Thanks DMXX for the list of similar haplogroups.My examples were not good. Red
hair is somewhat relevant, because it would be supportive of the old 5th century
text by Jordanes. The existence of red hair in Kashmir, Pakistan and India would
support that some the people that arrived in ships to Scandinavia were a diverse
group of peoples. Even with natural red hair.
“IV (25) Now from this island of Scandza, as from a hive of races or a womb of
nations, the Goths are said to have come forth long ago under their king, Berig
by name. As soon as they disembarked from their ships and set foot on the land,
they straightway gave their name to the place. And even to-day it is said to be
called Gothiscandza. (26) Soon they moved from here to the abodes of the
Ulmerugi, who then dwelt on the shores of Ocean, where they pitched camp, joined
battle with them and drove them from their homes. Then they subdued their
neighbors, the Vandals, and thus added to their victories. But when the number
of the people increased greatly and Filimer, son of Gadaric, reigned as
king--about the fifth since Berig--he decided that the army of the Goths with
their families should move from that region. (27) In search of suitable homes
and pleasant places they came to the land of Scythia, called Oium in that
tongue. Here they were delighted with the great richness of the country, and it
is said that when half the army had been brought over, the bridge whereby they
had crossed the river fell in utter ruin, nor could anyone thereafter pass to or
fro. For the place is said to be surrounded by quaking bogs and an encircling
abyss, so that by this double obstacle nature has made it inaccessible. And even
to-day one may hear in that neighborhood the lowing of cattle and may find
traces of men, if we are to believe the stories of travellers, although we must
grant that they hear these things from afar.(28) This part of the Goths, which
is said to have crossed the river and entered with Filimer into the country of
Oium, came into possession of the desired land, and there they soon came upon
the race of the Spali, joined battle with them and won the victory. Thence the
victors hastened to the farthest part of Scythia, which is near the sea of
Pontus; for so the story is generally told in their early songs, in almost
historic fashion. Ablabius also, a famous chronicler of the Gothic race,
confirms this in his most trustworthy account. (29) Some of the ancient writers
also agree with the tale. Among these we may mention Josephus, a most reliable
relator of annals, who everywhere follows the rule of truth and unravels from
the beginning the origin of causes;--but why he has omitted the beginnings of
the race of the Goths, of which I have spoken, I do not know. He barely mentions
Magog of that stock, and says they were Scythians by race and were called so by
name.” http://www.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/Courses/texts/jordgeti.html
From the text of Jordanes it seems that a people called Scythians were a mixed
group of people. I am not so sure if the semantics (meaning) of the concept
“Scythians” has been the same over the centuries. To me it seems like the
Scythian concept has become a description of an old culture of tall and blond
Siberians. Jordanes did not use the word “Scythians” in that sense.
According to a book and Internet sites some of the
greek-turkish-iranian-chinese-indian Khotans that likely are related to the
Gökturks had natural red hair. I cannot say much more than that right now. Will
post an URL to book & sites when I find them.
You are very concerned about looks, and then you likely have seen photos of
rather blond people in the Himalayan areas. Google: Kafir Kalash chitral
kafiristan Petrina View Member Profile Nov 17 2008, 08:48 AM Post
#130
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Group: MembersPosts: 87Joined: 2-August 07Member No.: 1,060mtDNA Haplogroup: U5

QUOTE (Norr @ Nov 17 2008, 07:58 AM) I've wondered my DNA Tribes autosomal
matches in north of India:


Many people in Europe likely have such mathces in Asia. I do not know if
autosomal testing is accurate.
What are your haplogroups?

Petrina View Member Profile Nov 17 2008, 09:47 AM Post #131
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Group: MembersPosts: 87Joined: 2-August 07Member No.: 1,060mtDNA Haplogroup: U5

To illusrate the previous comparison between the Svastika symbols in the book I
downloaded some photos from the book of Wilson that no longer is copyrighted.
You can see that Jain svastika matches the svastika's in the four squares on the
Buddha found in Myklebostad in Norway:
Jain
svastika(IMG:http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m252/aprerogative/Jainsvastikafr\
omwilson1857.jpg)
Buddha Myklebostad Norway by Arnybo 2008 Creative commons licence (Cropped
photo)
(IMG:http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m252/aprerogative/BuddhaMyklebostadNorwa\
ybyArnybo2008.jpg)
Use the center of the sun-circle in the middle as a frame of reference.
Buddha from Oseberg Viking ship
grave:(IMG:http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m252/aprerogative/BucklefromOseber\
gVikingshipBuddha3.jpg)
Svastika found on Chinese potters
mark:(IMG:http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m252/aprerogative/pottersmarkonporc\
elainchinafromWils.jpg) Aromagician View Member Profile Nov 17 2008,
09:50 AM Post #132
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b

Re Armenian swastika. A quick google search brought up this site which has
pictures of Armenian museum pieces. See item 15 where it states
15. In the right display case on the back wall are temple worship artifacts
uncovered at Metsamor (Early to Late Bronze Age). Among these are several small
carved stones, including one with the design of a swastika on one side and
another with the head of a dog carved on the back side (th example at left is
carved with a human deity). The swastika carving is one of the oldest sacred
symbols in the world, and cave drawings in the Geghama Mountains dating back to
the Neolithic times (7000 BC) include them. It is unfortunate the Nazis
corrupted their meaning in our times, as the swastika is a strong link between
the Indo-Europeans and the indigenous cultures of ancient times. In Armenia
examples of swastikas include swirling arms to both the right and left. Not a
crooked cross, as some people call them, they are actually one of the first
drawings of movement, showing a swirling power burning in the heavens. The
swastika was the primary symbol assigned to the gods for several thousand years.
It also so says this about the Armenians", but since Ancestral Armenia was a
bridge between Asia and Europe we do know what other cultures at the time called
the people living in this area. The Persians called them the “Ermani”, the
Babylonians “Arata”, the Assyrians “Nairi” . Later the Indo-European name
“Ararat” and “Armeni” become predominant names, though “Hai” was used by the
Hittites. Our guide suggested that though “Hai” and “Armen” were both names for
the same people, the word “Hai” is in fact an older name, as etymologists
believe it originated in the Ararat and Geghama mountains and migrated with
Ancestral Armenians into Anatolia and Asia Minor.
As for the Egyptians seafaring vessels. Apparently they would dismantle them and
carry them across to the ports, then put them together again. There is evidence
of them found in many places where Gold was mined.Here is one link on the
Egyptians ships,
This one here is National geographics story on the latest discovery, showing the
evidence of their seafaring from 4000BC Nat Geo- Egyptian oldest sea vessels
Interestingly some of the Egyptian Royal Family had red hair, Queen Tiye for
one.Regards DMXX View Member Profile Nov 17 2008, 10:08 AM Post #133
Member
Group: MembersPosts: 79Joined: 14-September 08Member No.: 3,907

QUOTE (Petrina @ Nov 17 2008, 09:44 AM) According to a book and Internet sites
some of the greek-turkish-iranian-chinese-indian Khotans that likely are related
to the Gökturks had natural red hair. I cannot say much more than that right
now. Will post an URL to book & sites when I find them.
You are very concerned about looks, and then you likely have seen photos of
rather blond people in the Himalayan areas. Google: Kafir Kalash chitral
kafiristan
Yeah, I've read similar things about the Gokturks; apparently they were
predominantly red-haired, up until the Mongols absorbed them into their empire,
or some interaction of that nature. I need to look that up again for future
reference.
And, I have read about the people in "Kafiristan", a region which literally
means "Land of the infidels" ("Kafir-" = "Infidel" in Arabic and "-stan" = "land
of" in Persian), as they weren't muslims more than 200 years ago, until they
were converted. The region is now known as "Nurestan", and the people there
speak Nuristani, an Indo-Aryan language, and they can be found in eastern
Afghanistan and north Pakistan.Much like other Indo-Iranian derived peoples,
Persians included, they still retain their old customs, regardless of their
conversion to Islam. However, the Kalash and Nuristanis are very isolated
groups, and many of their traditions appear to date back to the days of
pre-Zoroastrian Central-Western Asia. Because of that, they weren't influenced
by the cultural evolutions within larger Indo-Iranian groups, such as Pashtuns
and Persians. They're essentially remnants of an archaic culture that once
existed; a similar situation to the variant of Persian spoken in Tajikistan,
where many loanwards from now-extinct Iranic tribes are present.Therefore,
they're a valuable insight into the way of life amongst Indo-Iranians from
ancient times. However, that doesn't make their culture any more or less
"Iranian" than the non-Islamic customs amongst Iranians, Azeris, Baluchis and
Pashtuns today; just one that's presumably remained very much the same over
centuries.
There are still pockets of Nuristanis who aren't muslims, but their numbers are
dwindling. The Kalash haven't been as thoroughly islamized, but, they're having
similar issues. parasar View Member Profile Nov 17 2008, 04:39 PM
Post #134
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QUOTE (Petrina @ Nov 17 2008, 02:47 AM) The oldest king mentioned in relation
to the Egyptian labyrinth at Amenemhat III (about 1860 -1814 BCE) found by a
researchers 11,5 miles from pyramid Hawara in Faioum, Egypt. It seems like that
was a complex building.
However the Indian might be older than all of them, there are controversies if
the oldest labyrinth petroglyph found in Goa is from 2500 BCE. From what I can
remember the labyrinth symbols are also found in findings from the Harappan
civilization. I will post a link later.
The swastika sign was found on seals in the Indus Valley civilization, Ravi
River Phase that is dated from 3500 BCE (controversial) or for certain from 3300
BCE. http://www.crystalinks.com/induscivilization.html
http://www.harappa.com/har/har0.html
About genes, what haplogroups connects the people of India / Pakistan and Egypt
today or via ancient DNA finds?
For Mohejodaro the lowest levels (ie the oldest ones) are still to escavated due
to the water table, it is presumed to be related to Kot-diji. "The earliest
occupation levels of the site currently lie buried below the water table and
date to around 3500 BCE, during the Kot Diji phase of the Regionalization era
(Chaolong 1990)." http://www.mohenjodaro.net/ancientcrafts.html

QUOTE (Aromagician @ Nov 16 2008, 11:16 PM) I looked with interest the
discussion that the svastika and the Labyrinth were Indian in origin. when in
fact there is early writings that talk of the labyrinth in Egypt. see
[email="http://www.amazeingart.com/seven-wonders/egyptian-labyrinth.html"]here[/\
email] Of course it is well known in the Greek myths.
The svastika also shows it head early on in Armenia/ early Mesopotamiasee this
site
here[email="http://www.angelfire.com/hi/Azgaser/swastika.html"]http://www.angelf\
ire.com/hi/Azgaser/swastika.html[/email]Didnt one of the posts say one of the
shared haplogroups was with Armenia?
Joseph Campbells book oriental Mythology highlights a lot of the similarities
between the Egyptian and Indian cultures and religions.
The large ships found in Egypt with crusted barnacles, showed that they had been
at sea for at least 2-3 months. So could be another source of the spreading of
cultural symbols.
The travel between ancient people has left many remnants behind. That is what
makes it so interesting with Dna, to try and sort out who went where, or more
accurately settled where.
Another of the mythological symbols that may have come out of Indus region is
the Unicorn. It is still exists in India as the deity Eka-shringa-one horned.
The site of Sringeri- where an Acharya/pontiff lives is connected to Eka-shringa
Shiva, who like the Indus Unicorn has one horn on the forehead (Rhino?). This
animal was know to the Greeks too. On Swastika, in Indus, the Chatur-anga was
probably a precursor. This was a dice board game (& a battle formation).
Shatranj/Chess may be a derivative. Cf. Lion/Unicorn playing chess and the UK &
Canadian Coat of Arms:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:UK_Royal_Coat_of_Arms.svg,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Coat_of...s_of_Canada.svg
Ctesias' Indica: "There are in India certain wild asses which are as large as
horses, and larger. Their bodies are white, their heads are dark red, and their
eyes dark blue. They have a horn on the forehead which is about eighteen inches
in length. The dust filed from this horn is administered in a potion as a
protection against deadly drugs." Again by India - Sindh is meant since he says:
"the population of India is almost greater than that of the whole world. Beyond
India there are no countries inhabited by men. It never rains there, the country
being watered by the river ... Ctesias relates these fables as perfect truth,
adding that he himself had seen with his own eyes some of the things he
describes, and had been informed of the rest by eye-witnesses."
http://www.livius.org/ct-cz/ctesias/photius_indica.html Petrina View
Member Profile Nov 17 2008, 05:18 PM Post #135
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QUOTE (DMXX @ Nov 17 2008, 11:08 AM) Yeah, I've read similar things about the
Gokturks; apparently they were predominantly red-haired, up until the Mongols
absorbed them into their empire, or some interaction of that nature. I need to
look that up again for future reference.
And, I have read about the people in "Kafiristan", a region which literally
means "Land of the infidels" ("Kafir-" = "Infidel" in Arabic and "-stan" = "land
of" in Persian), as they weren't muslims more than 200 years ago, until they
were converted. The region is now known as "Nurestan", and the people there
speak Nuristani, an Indo-Aryan language, and they can be found in eastern
Afghanistan and north Pakistan.Much like other Indo-Iranian derived peoples,
Persians included, they still retain their old customs, regardless of their
conversion to Islam. However, the Kalash and Nuristanis are very isolated
groups, and many of their traditions appear to date back to the days of
pre-Zoroastrian Central-Western Asia. Because of that, they weren't influenced
by the cultural evolutions within larger Indo-Iranian groups, such as Pashtuns
and Persians. They're essentially remnants of an archaic culture that once
existed; a similar situation to the variant of Persian spoken in Tajikistan,
where many loanwards from now-extinct Iranic tribes are present.Therefore,
they're a valuable insight into the way of life amongst Indo-Iranians from
ancient times. However, that doesn't make their culture any more or less
"Iranian" than the non-Islamic customs amongst Iranians, Azeris, Baluchis and
Pashtuns today; just one that's presumably remained very much the same over
centuries.
There are still pockets of Nuristanis who aren't muslims, but their numbers are
dwindling. The Kalash haven't been as thoroughly islamized, but, they're having
similar issues.

To me it seems like the Gökturks were a very diverse people all the time, they
lived in areas that were melting pots of people and the culture likely developed
as a synthesis of these differences.
The Kalash people in Hindu Kush seem to have quite similar cultural traditions
as the Ladakh of India and Tibet. The Kalash were likely isolated as a
protection from Islam. It took a long time to convert people in these upper
areas. Is Buddhism is still present among the Kalash today?
I saw a photo from Kalash where they in the 1960ies still had religious symbols
resembling the ones seen on pictures stones in Gotland, Sweden.
http://www.arild-hauge.com/arild-hauge/go-rune-sanda.jpg
See picture 4: “This richly carved post is possibly of a more recent date.
Geometric designs are typical for the Kalasha. Figurative depictions of deities
are almost unknown - only a figure of the fertility goddess Nirmali, was
discovered in the Prasun area of Nuristan in 1960s.” end of
quotehttp://www.nb.no/baser/morgenstierne/nirma...acrifice98.html
And the photos taken by Morgenstierne also show that these people, like the
people in Himachal Pradesh, Uttar Pradesh, Tibet and Kashmir still practice
ancient woodcarving traditions, which all have similarities to the ones of the
Viking culture.
http://www.nb.no/baser/morgenstierne/nirma...100/GM2c83d.jpg Petrina
View Member Profile Nov 17 2008, 05:23 PM Post #136
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QUOTE (Aromagician @ Nov 17 2008, 10:50 AM) Re Armenian swastika. A quick
google search brought up this site which has pictures of Armenian museum pieces.
See item 15 where it states
15. In the right display case on the back wall are temple worship artifacts
uncovered at Metsamor (Early to Late Bronze Age). Among these are several small
carved stones, including one with the design of a swastika on one side and
another with the head of a dog carved on the back side (th example at left is
carved with a human deity). The swastika carving is one of the oldest sacred
symbols in the world, and cave drawings in the Geghama Mountains dating back to
the Neolithic times (7000 BC) include them. It is unfortunate the Nazis
corrupted their meaning in our times, as the swastika is a strong link between
the Indo-Europeans and the indigenous cultures of ancient times. In Armenia
examples of swastikas include swirling arms to both the right and left. Not a
crooked cross, as some people call them, they are actually one of the first
drawings of movement, showing a swirling power burning in the heavens. The
swastika was the primary symbol assigned to the gods for several thousand years.
It also so says this about the Armenians", but since Ancestral Armenia was a
bridge between Asia and Europe we do know what other cultures at the time called
the people living in this area. The Persians called them the “Ermani”, the
Babylonians “Arata”, the Assyrians “Nairi” . Later the Indo-European name
“Ararat” and “Armeni” become predominant names, though “Hai” was used by the
Hittites. Our guide suggested that though “Hai” and “Armen” were both names for
the same people, the word “Hai” is in fact an older name, as etymologists
believe it originated in the Ararat and Geghama mountains and migrated with
Ancestral Armenians into Anatolia and Asia Minor.
As for the Egyptians seafaring vessels. Apparently they would dismantle them and
carry them across to the ports, then put them together again. There is evidence
of them found in many places where Gold was mined.Here is one link on the
Egyptians ships,
This one here is National geographics story on the latest discovery, showing the
evidence of their seafaring from 4000BC Nat Geo- Egyptian oldest sea vessels
Interestingly some of the Egyptian Royal Family had red hair, Queen Tiye for
one.Regards

Thank you for these addresses. Wow, sure enough this museum page tells that the
swastika found there was from 7000 BCE in the Geghama Mountains, Armenia. I
totally agree with them that it is unfortunate that the Nazis corrupted the
meaning of this symbol. The swastika was symbolism of swirling power and Wilson
mentions this interpretation in the old book.
It seems like there was a people called Ermani, Arata, Nairi, or later Hai,
Ararat and Armeni. Knowing what a melting pot the Middle East and Caucasus have
been and still is, one have to ask whether these people are the same as the ones
that lives in these areas today. Have there been comparisons of ancient and
present genetics in Armenia?
Were they Buddhist too? Or did they use Buddhist similar ornamentation in
Aremenia?
The article from National Geographic tells that these ships were dated to be
4000 years old, not from 4000 BC.
The first Tidal dock was built 2300 BC in Lothal, Gujarat in India, that is c.
4300 years ago (during the Harappan period).
http://indiannavy.nic.in/history.htm
An artist have reconstructed the dock from the ruins in the following
image:http://www.harappa.com/lothal/gif/1.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_maritime_history Archaeological photos can
be seen here: http://www.harappa.com/lothal/
There have clearly been trade connections between India and for instance Egypt,
so the ships found might have come from there:
“Lothal was a major trade centre, importing en masse raw materials like copper,
chert and semi-precious stones from Mohenjo-daro and Harappa……….An intensive
trade network gave the inhabitants great prosperity—it stretched across the
frontiers to Egypt, Bahrain and Sumer.[9]One of the evidence of trade in Lothal
is the discovery of typical Persian gulf seals, a circular button sealThe rise
of civilization in India and Pakistan by Bridget and F. Raymond Allchin. p.187”
end of quote from Wikpedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lothal
Why these findings are interesting for the topic in this tread:
1) It shows that people from very early on sailed long distances on the oceans.
Therefore it is not impossible that Buddhist missioners came from India to
Europe.
2) The finding of 4000 year old ships in Egypt additionally show that these
ancient people were able to transport the ships over land areas. “"It looks as
though they created ships in kit form, carried them over the desert, sailed to
Punt, got what they required, and abandoned the ships," Snape said.”
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/20...gypt_ships.html
This supports that a route from India, via the Red sea and over land to the
Mediterranean Sea, then passing Gibraltar and up to Northern Europe were
possible before Common Era. I mentioned earlier that old texts of St. Origen
told that Asoka had sent missions to England. Norr View Member Profile
Nov 17 2008, 06:25 PM Post #137
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QUOTE (Petrina @ Nov 17 2008, 09:48 AM) Many people in Europe likely have such
mathces in Asia. I do not know if autosomal testing is accurate.
What are your haplogroups?
Y-hg is I1 and mtDNA-hg is H. Norr View Member Profile Nov 17 2008,
06:36 PM Post #138
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QUOTE (Petrina @ Nov 17 2008, 10:47 AM) To illusrate the previous comparison
between the Svastika symbols in the book I downloaded some photos from the book
of Wilson that no longer is copyrighted. You can see that Jain svastika matches
the svastika's in the four squares on the Buddha found in Myklebostad in Norway:
Jain
svastika(IMG:http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m252/aprerogative/Jainsvastikafr\
omwilson1857.jpg)
Buddha Myklebostad Norway by Arnybo 2008 Creative commons licence (Cropped
photo)
(IMG:http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m252/aprerogative/BuddhaMyklebostadNorwa\
ybyArnybo2008.jpg)
Use the center of the sun-circle in the middle as a frame of reference.
Buddha from Oseberg Viking ship
grave:(IMG:http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m252/aprerogative/BucklefromOseber\
gVikingshipBuddha3.jpg)
Svastika found on Chinese potters
mark:(IMG:http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m252/aprerogative/pottersmarkonporc\
elainchinafromWils.jpg)
I think one form of swastika is the ancient "Tursaansydän" in Finland:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tursaansyd%C3%A4n
(IMG:http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5c/Mursunsydämet.jpg)
The one on the left looks like it's formed of four Tyr-runes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyr_rune parasar View Member Profile Nov
17 2008, 07:12 PM Post #139
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QUOTE (Aromagician @ Nov 17 2008, 04:50 AM) Re Armenian swastika. A quick
google search brought up this site which has pictures of Armenian museum pieces.
See item 15 where it states
15. In the right display case on the back wall are temple worship artifacts
uncovered at Metsamor (Early to Late Bronze Age). Among these are several small
carved stones, including one with the design of a swastika on one side and
another with the head of a dog carved on the back side (th example at left is
carved with a human deity). The swastika carving is one of the oldest sacred
symbols in the world, and cave drawings in the Geghama Mountains dating back to
the Neolithic times (7000 BC) include them. It is unfortunate the Nazis
corrupted their meaning in our times, as the swastika is a strong link between
the Indo-Europeans and the indigenous cultures of ancient times. In Armenia
examples of swastikas include swirling arms to both the right and left. Not a
crooked cross, as some people call them, they are actually one of the first
drawings of movement, showing a swirling power burning in the heavens. The
swastika was the primary symbol assigned to the gods for several thousand years.
It also so says this about the Armenians", but since Ancestral Armenia was a
bridge between Asia and Europe we do know what other cultures at the time called
the people living in this area. The Persians called them the “Ermani”, the
Babylonians “Arata”, the Assyrians “Nairi” . Later the Indo-European name
“Ararat” and “Armeni” become predominant names, though “Hai” was used by the
Hittites. Our guide suggested that though “Hai” and “Armen” were both names for
the same people, the word “Hai” is in fact an older name, as etymologists
believe it originated in the Ararat and Geghama mountains and migrated with
Ancestral Armenians into Anatolia and Asia Minor.
As for the Egyptians seafaring vessels. Apparently they would dismantle them and
carry them across to the ports, then put them together again. There is evidence
of them found in many places where Gold was mined.Here is one link on the
Egyptians ships,
This one here is National geographics story on the latest discovery, showing the
evidence of their seafaring from 4000BC Nat Geo- Egyptian oldest sea vessels
Interestingly some of the Egyptian Royal Family had red hair, Queen Tiye for
one.Regards
I had thought that the Babylonian Arata was the modern upper Punjab (Meluha
(Indus Delta), and Maka (Makran), Dilmun? are also mentioned). Or maybe there
were two different Aratas.
Mahabharata: "the Satadru, the Vipasa, the Iravati, the Candrabhaga, and the
Vitasa and which have the Sindhu for their sixth, there in those regions removed
from the Himavat, are the countries called by the name of the Aratta ... where
the five rivers flow just after issuing from the mountains"
Periplus: "The country inland from Barygaza is inhabited by numerous tribes,
such as the Arattii, the Arachosii, the Gandaraei and the people of Poclais, in
which is Bucephalus Alexandria. Above these is the very warlike nation of the
Bactrians, who are under their own king. And Alexander, setting out from these
parts, penetrated to the Ganges, leaving aside Damirica and the southern part of
India; and to the present day ancient drachmae are current in Barygaza, coming
from this country, bearing inscriptions in Greek letters, and the devices of
those who reigned after Alexander, Apollodorus and Menander."
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/periplus.html
Nevertheless, after reading the Sumerian text, it is still difficult to place
the Sumerian Aratta: "He traversed five mountains, six mountains, seven
mountains. He lifted his eyes as he approached Aratta. He stepped joyfully into
the courtyard of Aratta, he made known the authority of his king. Openly he
spoke out the words in his heart." "let Aratta fashion gold and silver skilfully
on my behalf for Unug. Let them cut the flawless lapis lazuli from the blocks"

On the similarity of the Swastika form to the Chatur-anga, please see:
http://www.columbia.edu/cu/lweb/digital/co...;top=&left= Aromagician
View Member Profile Nov 17 2008, 09:27 PM Post #140
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The other link called "Egyptian ships", shows that the boat found in Khufus
tomb at Giza, was a sound one, and was 4000 years old. Which proves they had the
means for sea travel back then.
The swastika in Armenia and in Greece, and in Phoenician pottery seems to relate
to the sun God. Is a solar symbol.
The Chinese are also credited with a lot of early travel. Not long ago Ancient
Chinese petroglyphs were found in a cave in NZ. As to buddhist travel. At the
Motuti marae in Northland NZ, they have a legend about some of their ancestors
arrving from Tibet.Also the Maori also have a history where they say the ancient
peoples traveled from URU ( thought by some to be UR or Mesopotamia) then onto
Irihia ( Which is thought to be similar to the ancient word for India-
Vrihia)The prevalence of the swastika in the Native Americans iconry, also leads
us to look closely at the idea of a very early exchange of ideas and peoples
throughout the world.
Regards

QUOTE (Petrina @ Nov 17 2008, 06:23 PM) Were they Buddhist too? Or did they use
Buddhist similar ornamentation in Aremenia?
The article from National Geographic tells that these ships were dated to be
4000 years old, not from 4000 BC.
The first Tidal dock was built 2300 BC in Lothal, Gujarat in India, that is c.
4300 years ago (during the Harappan period).
http://indiannavy.nic.in/history.htm
An artist have reconstructed the dock from the ruins in the following
image:http://www.harappa.com/lothal/gif/1.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_maritime_history Archaeological photos can
be seen here: http://www.harappa.com/lothal/
2) The finding of 4000 year old ships in Egypt additionally show that these
ancient people were able to transport the ships over land areas. “"It looks as
though they created ships in kit form, carried them over the desert, sailed to
Punt, got what they required, and abandoned the ships," Snape said.”
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/20...gypt_ships.html
This supports that a route from India, via the Red sea and over land to the
Mediterranean Sea, then passing Gibraltar and up to Northern Europe were
possible before Common Era. I mentioned earlier that old texts of St. Origen
told that Asoka had sent missions to England.

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