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On Johnny's and Sumal's questions

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  • pinaki roy
    Dear Sherlockians, This has reference to Mr. Johnny’s question regarding “The Tangled Skin”. I do not think “The Tangled Skin” was to have any
    Message 1 of 6 , Mar 12, 2008
      Dear Sherlockians,

      This has reference to Mr. Johnny’s question regarding “The Tangled Skin”. I do not think “The Tangled Skin” was to have any supernatural connotation. From the draft of the story (Arthur Conan Doyle started writing it on 8 March 1886), a copy of which Allen Eyles has provided in the 12th page of “Sherlock Holmes: A Centenary Celebration” (London: John Murray, 1986), it appears that Doyle was initially without any particular idea about how the detective story would develop, but obviously he had ‘murder in his mind’. Probably the mass of skin was to be of a victim brutally annihilated by an initially-unknown assailant. It is interesting that Doyle aimed, even from the first draft, at demeaning detective characters created by other writers like Poe and Gaboriau. The writer had scribbled, “Lecoq was a burglar – Dupin was better.” In the first draft of that story, John H. Watson and Sherlock Holmes appeared respectively as ‘Ormond Sacker’ and ‘Sherrinford Holmes’. The story was
      purchased for a mere 25 pounds by M/s. Ward, Lock and Company, and was published as “A Study in Scarlet” in “Beeton’s Christmas Annual”, November 1886. And the rest, as we know, is history.

      Sumal, I think this topic may be taken up for discussion. Though D.H.Friston was the first artist to depict Sherlock Holmes, followed by Charles Doyle, most of the Sherlock Holmes illustrations in “The Strand Magazine” were drawn by Sidney Paget (for 38 adventures). It is often put forward as hypothesis that Sidney Paget modelled Sherlock Holmes on his brother Walter, whereas for Watson, he employed a slightly-modified image of Doyle himself. I ask for the Sherlockians’ valuable opinion regarding how much have had our conception about the detective in his deerstalker and wooden pipe been influenced by Sidney Paget’s illustrations.

      Yours sincerely,

      (Pinaki Roy, Ph.D.)





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      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Anand Balachandran Pillai
      Excuse me if I am wrong- but wasn t it The tangled skein ? ... -- Sent from Gmail for mobile | mobile.google.com -Anand
      Message 2 of 6 , Mar 12, 2008
        Excuse me if I am wrong- but wasn't it "The tangled skein" ?

        On 3/12/08, pinaki roy <monkaroy@...> wrote:
        > Dear Sherlockians,
        >
        > This has reference to Mr. Johnny's question regarding "The Tangled Skin".
        > I do not think "The Tangled Skin" was to have any supernatural connotation.
        > From the draft of the story (Arthur Conan Doyle started writing it on 8
        > March 1886), a copy of which Allen Eyles has provided in the 12th page of
        > "Sherlock Holmes: A Centenary Celebration" (London: John Murray, 1986), it
        > appears that Doyle was initially without any particular idea about how the
        > detective story would develop, but obviously he had 'murder in his mind'.
        > Probably the mass of skin was to be of a victim brutally annihilated by an
        > initially-unknown assailant. It is interesting that Doyle aimed, even from
        > the first draft, at demeaning detective characters created by other writers
        > like Poe and Gaboriau. The writer had scribbled, "Lecoq was a burglar –
        > Dupin was better." In the first draft of that story, John H. Watson and
        > Sherlock Holmes appeared respectively as 'Ormond Sacker' and 'Sherrinford
        > Holmes'. The story was
        > purchased for a mere 25 pounds by M/s. Ward, Lock and Company, and was
        > published as "A Study in Scarlet" in "Beeton's Christmas Annual", November
        > 1886. And the rest, as we know, is history.
        >
        > Sumal, I think this topic may be
        > taken up for discussion. Though D.H.Friston was the first artist to depict
        > Sherlock Holmes, followed by Charles Doyle, most of the Sherlock Holmes
        > illustrations in "The Strand Magazine" were drawn by Sidney Paget (for 38
        > adventures). It is often put forward as hypothesis that Sidney Paget
        > modelled Sherlock Holmes on his brother Walter, whereas for Watson, he
        > employed a slightly-modified image of Doyle himself. I ask for the
        > Sherlockians' valuable opinion regarding how much have had our conception
        > about the detective in his deerstalker and wooden pipe been influenced by
        > Sidney Paget's illustrations.
        >
        > Yours sincerely,
        >
        > (Pinaki Roy, Ph.D.)
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ---------------------------------
        > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >

        --
        Sent from Gmail for mobile | mobile.google.com

        -Anand
      • Tim Symonds
        Did the phrase tangled skein come from Shakespeare - what we humans weave? _____ From: SherlockHolmesSocietyofIndia@yahoogroups.co.in
        Message 3 of 6 , Mar 12, 2008
          Did the phrase 'tangled skein' come from Shakespeare - what we humans weave?

          _____

          From: SherlockHolmesSocietyofIndia@...
          [mailto:SherlockHolmesSocietyofIndia@...] On Behalf Of Anand
          Balachandran Pillai
          Sent: 12 March 2008 16:33
          To: SherlockHolmesSocietyofIndia@...
          Subject: Re: [sherlock holmes society of india] On Johnny's and Sumal's
          questions



          Excuse me if I am wrong- but wasn't it "The tangled skein" ?

          On 3/12/08, pinaki roy <monkaroy@yahoo. <mailto:monkaroy%40yahoo.com> com>
          wrote:
          > Dear Sherlockians,
          >
          > This has reference to Mr. Johnny's question regarding "The Tangled Skin".
          > I do not think "The Tangled Skin" was to have any supernatural
          connotation.
          > From the draft of the story (Arthur Conan Doyle started writing it on 8
          > March 1886), a copy of which Allen Eyles has provided in the 12th page of
          > "Sherlock Holmes: A Centenary Celebration" (London: John Murray, 1986), it
          > appears that Doyle was initially without any particular idea about how the
          > detective story would develop, but obviously he had 'murder in his mind'.
          > Probably the mass of skin was to be of a victim brutally annihilated by an
          > initially-unknown assailant. It is interesting that Doyle aimed, even from
          > the first draft, at demeaning detective characters created by other
          writers
          > like Poe and Gaboriau. The writer had scribbled, "Lecoq was a burglar -
          > Dupin was better." In the first draft of that story, John H. Watson and
          > Sherlock Holmes appeared respectively as 'Ormond Sacker' and 'Sherrinford
          > Holmes'. The story was
          > purchased for a mere 25 pounds by M/s. Ward, Lock and Company, and was
          > published as "A Study in Scarlet" in "Beeton's Christmas Annual", November
          > 1886. And the rest, as we know, is history.
          >
          > Sumal, I think this topic may be
          > taken up for discussion. Though D.H.Friston was the first artist to depict
          > Sherlock Holmes, followed by Charles Doyle, most of the Sherlock Holmes
          > illustrations in "The Strand Magazine" were drawn by Sidney Paget (for 38
          > adventures). It is often put forward as hypothesis that Sidney Paget
          > modelled Sherlock Holmes on his brother Walter, whereas for Watson, he
          > employed a slightly-modified image of Doyle himself. I ask for the
          > Sherlockians' valuable opinion regarding how much have had our conception
          > about the detective in his deerstalker and wooden pipe been influenced by
          > Sidney Paget's illustrations.
          >
          > Yours sincerely,
          >
          > (Pinaki Roy, Ph.D.)
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ---------------------------------
          > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >

          --
          Sent from Gmail for mobile | mobile.google.com

          -Anand





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • sridhar C
          Dear SHians, The Tangled Skein was first published in 1901 as In Mary s Reign as the second book of Baroness Orczy, but in 1907 it was re-released as TTS
          Message 4 of 6 , Mar 12, 2008
            Dear SHians,

            "The Tangled Skein" was first published in 1901 as "In Mary's Reign" as the second book of Baroness Orczy, but in 1907 it was re-released as TTS after the success of "The Scarlet Pimpernel." As the former title suggests, it is a depiction of Queen Mary as "so passionately loving as to be almost lovable, a woman of strong emotions, invariably swayed by justice" according to wikipedia.

            However, "A Study in Scarlet" was actually titled "The Tangled Skein" originally. The following paras are from wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Study_in_Scarlet):

            "The story was originally titled A Tangled Skein, and was eventually published by Ward Lock & Co. in Beeton's Christmas Annual 1887, after many rejections. The author received £25 in return for the full rights (although Conan Doyle had pressed for a royalty instead). The novel was produced in book form in July 1888, published by Ward, Lock & Co. This book was illustrated by Arthur Conan Doyle's father, Charles Doyle. A second edition appeared the following year and contained illustrations by George Hutchinson, and J. B. Lippincott Co. published the first American edition in 1890."

            The title derives from a speech given by Holmes to his companion Doctor Watson on the nature of his work, in which he describes his murder investigation as a "study in scarlet": "There’s the scarlet thread of murder running through the colourless skein of life, and our duty is to unravel it, and isolate it, and expose every inch of it."


            Sridhar
            PS: I think I should say the second author to use the title "The Tangled Skein." There have apparently been other authors in later years who have used the same title.


            Tim Symonds <tim.symonds@...> wrote:
            Did the phrase 'tangled skein' come from Shakespeare - what we humans weave?

            _____

            From: SherlockHolmesSocietyofIndia@...
            [mailto:SherlockHolmesSocietyofIndia@...] On Behalf Of Anand
            Balachandran Pillai
            Sent: 12 March 2008 16:33
            To: SherlockHolmesSocietyofIndia@...
            Subject: Re: [sherlock holmes society of india] On Johnny's and Sumal's
            questions

            Excuse me if I am wrong- but wasn't it "The tangled skein" ?

            On 3/12/08, pinaki roy <monkaroy@yahoo. <mailto:monkaroy%40yahoo.com> com>
            wrote:
            > Dear Sherlockians,
            >
            > This has reference to Mr. Johnny's question regarding "The Tangled Skin".
            > I do not think "The Tangled Skin" was to have any supernatural
            connotation.
            > From the draft of the story (Arthur Conan Doyle started writing it on 8
            > March 1886), a copy of which Allen Eyles has provided in the 12th page of
            > "Sherlock Holmes: A Centenary Celebration" (London: John Murray, 1986), it
            > appears that Doyle was initially without any particular idea about how the
            > detective story would develop, but obviously he had 'murder in his mind'.
            > Probably the mass of skin was to be of a victim brutally annihilated by an
            > initially-unknown assailant. It is interesting that Doyle aimed, even from
            > the first draft, at demeaning detective characters created by other
            writers
            > like Poe and Gaboriau. The writer had scribbled, "Lecoq was a burglar -
            > Dupin was better." In the first draft of that story, John H. Watson and
            > Sherlock Holmes appeared respectively as 'Ormond Sacker' and 'Sherrinford
            > Holmes'. The story was
            > purchased for a mere 25 pounds by M/s. Ward, Lock and Company, and was
            > published as "A Study in Scarlet" in "Beeton's Christmas Annual", November
            > 1886. And the rest, as we know, is history.
            >
            > Sumal, I think this topic may be
            > taken up for discussion. Though D.H.Friston was the first artist to depict
            > Sherlock Holmes, followed by Charles Doyle, most of the Sherlock Holmes
            > illustrations in "The Strand Magazine" were drawn by Sidney Paget (for 38
            > adventures). It is often put forward as hypothesis that Sidney Paget
            > modelled Sherlock Holmes on his brother Walter, whereas for Watson, he
            > employed a slightly-modified image of Doyle himself. I ask for the
            > Sherlockians' valuable opinion regarding how much have had our conception
            > about the detective in his deerstalker and wooden pipe been influenced by
            > Sidney Paget's illustrations.
            >
            > Yours sincerely,
            >
            > (Pinaki Roy, Ph.D.)
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ---------------------------------
            > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >

            --
            Sent from Gmail for mobile | mobile.google.com

            -Anand

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






            ---------------------------------
            Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • sridhar C
            Dear Pinaki and other SHians, Like has been discussed before, a few of us watched the Adventures of Sherlock Holmes in serial form in the mid 80s. The very
            Message 5 of 6 , Mar 12, 2008
              Dear Pinaki and other SHians,

              Like has been discussed before, a few of us watched the Adventures of Sherlock Holmes in serial form in the mid 80s. The very first image that I have is of Holmes and Watson sitting by the fireside in their cosy chairs, Holmes with a pipe in his hand explaining something to Watson who is formally dressed and is all attention. Subsequently, when I first read the Canon the illustrations by Sidney Paget reminded me of that very first image of Holmes that I had in my mind and only made that image stronger. So I would have to say Paget's pictures had a lot to do with how I always picture Holmes.


              Sridhar.


              pinaki roy <monkaroy@...> wrote:
              Dear Sherlockians,

              This has reference to Mr. Johnny’s question regarding “The Tangled Skin”. I do not think “The Tangled Skin” was to have any supernatural connotation. From the draft of the story (Arthur Conan Doyle started writing it on 8 March 1886), a copy of which Allen Eyles has provided in the 12th page of “Sherlock Holmes: A Centenary Celebration” (London: John Murray, 1986), it appears that Doyle was initially without any particular idea about how the detective story would develop, but obviously he had ‘murder in his mind’. Probably the mass of skin was to be of a victim brutally annihilated by an initially-unknown assailant. It is interesting that Doyle aimed, even from the first draft, at demeaning detective characters created by other writers like Poe and Gaboriau. The writer had scribbled, “Lecoq was a burglar – Dupin was better.” In the first draft of that story, John H. Watson and Sherlock Holmes appeared respectively as ‘Ormond Sacker’ and ‘Sherrinford Holmes’. The story was
              purchased for a mere 25 pounds by M/s. Ward, Lock and Company, and was published as “A Study in Scarlet” in “Beeton’s Christmas Annual”, November 1886. And the rest, as we know, is history.

              Sumal, I think this topic may be taken up for discussion. Though D.H.Friston was the first artist to depict Sherlock Holmes, followed by Charles Doyle, most of the Sherlock Holmes illustrations in “The Strand Magazine” were drawn by Sidney Paget (for 38 adventures). It is often put forward as hypothesis that Sidney Paget modelled Sherlock Holmes on his brother Walter, whereas for Watson, he employed a slightly-modified image of Doyle himself. I ask for the Sherlockians’ valuable opinion regarding how much have had our conception about the detective in his deerstalker and wooden pipe been influenced by Sidney Paget’s illustrations.

              Yours sincerely,

              (Pinaki Roy, Ph.D.)




              ---------------------------------
              Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






              ---------------------------------
              Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • pinaki roy
              Dear Sherlockians, I second Sridhar s comment. I think Sidney Paget s illustrations have had modified the image of Holmes and his associate in our mind a lot.
              Message 6 of 6 , Mar 13, 2008
                Dear Sherlockians,

                I second Sridhar's comment. I think Sidney Paget's illustrations have had modified the image of Holmes and his associate in our mind a lot. Further comments?


                Pinaki








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