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!! The humbleness of Sherlock Holmes !!

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  • Rajit Roy
    In the Five Orange Pips , Holmes says that he had been beaten four times, once by a woman and three times by men. The woman is, of course, Irene Adler. Who
    Message 1 of 10 , Mar 26, 2014
      In the 'Five Orange Pips', Holmes says that he had been beaten four times, once by a woman and three times by men. The woman is, of course, Irene Adler. Who were the three men? Still puzzling my mind on this.
    • Philip K. Jones
      My dear Sir: I am sorry that I must disagree with you in this matter. Footnote #6 in my article, The Untold Tales - Identified sums up my objection to this
      Message 2 of 10 , Mar 26, 2014
        
        My dear Sir:
         
        I am sorry that I must disagree with you in this matter.  Footnote #6 in my article, "The Untold Tales - Identified" sums up my objection to this identification:  I quote it below:
         

        Again, the chronology is confused.  Most experts date FIVE in March 1888, after SCAN, but Watson states it was in September of 1887, so “…once by a woman…” cannot be SCAN, which occurred at earliest in March of 1888.

         

        I have been very careful, but I have not yet been able to identify any of the four instances noted to which I have assigned the codes, "BTN1," "BTN2," "BTN3" and "BTNW."  None of the 10,000 and more items listed in my database have been assigned these codes as fulfilling the criteria of "Hlolmes having been beaten" and as having occurred before the events in "The Five Orange Pips."

         

        I am open to suggestions for tales that tell these stories.

         

        Submitted respectfully:

         

        Philip K. Jones
        pkenj@...
        An Ill-dressed Vagabond

         
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Rajit Roy
        Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2014 1:59 PM
        Subject: SHSI !! The humbleness of Sherlock Holmes !!

         


        In the 'Five Orange Pips', Holmes says that he had been beaten four times, once by a woman and three times by men. The woman is, of course, Irene Adler. Who were the three men? Still puzzling my mind on this.

      • ruling_jay
        Let s park The Woman issue for now. Who are the three men that beat Sherlock Holmes? That s what I d like to know! Excellent question, Rajit - one, I m sure,
        Message 3 of 10 , Mar 27, 2014
          Let's park "The Woman" issue for now. Who are the three men that beat Sherlock Holmes? That's what I'd like to know!

          Excellent question, Rajit - one, I'm sure, every single one of us has lost sleep over!

          And a lesson in humility we could all learn. :) :)

          Cheers,
          Jay

          Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone.
          From: Philip K. Jones
          Sent: Thursday 27 March 2014 2:35 AM
          To: SherlockHolmesSocietyofIndia@...
          Reply To: SherlockHolmesSocietyofIndia@...
          Subject: Re: SHSI !! The humbleness of Sherlock Holmes !!

           

          

          My dear Sir:
           
          I am sorry that I must disagree with you in this matter.  Footnote #6 in my article, "The Untold Tales - Identified" sums up my objection to this identification:  I quote it below:
           

          Again, the chronology is confused.  Most experts date FIVE in March 1888, after SCAN, but Watson states it was in September of 1887, so “…once by a woman…” cannot be SCAN, which occurred at earliest in March of 1888.

           

          I have been very careful, but I have not yet been able to identify any of the four instances noted to which I have assigned the codes, "BTN1," "BTN2," "BTN3" and "BTNW."  None of the 10,000 and more items listed in my database have been assigned these codes as fulfilling the criteria of "Hlolmes having been beaten" and as having occurred before the events in "The Five Orange Pips."

           

          I am open to suggestions for tales that tell these stories.

           

          Submitted respectfully:

           

          Philip K. Jones
          pkenj@...
          An Ill-dressed Vagabond

           
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Rajit Roy
          Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2014 1:59 PM
          Subject: SHSI !! The humbleness of Sherlock Holmes !!

           


          In the 'Five Orange Pips', Holmes says that he had been beaten four times, once by a woman and three times by men. The woman is, of course, Irene Adler. Who were the three men? Still puzzling my mind on this.


        • Balaji Narasimhan
          Hi Philip, /// Most experts date FIVE in March 1888, after SCAN, but Watson states it was in September of 1887, so “…once by a woman…” cannot be SCAN,
          Message 4 of 10 , Mar 27, 2014
            Hi Philip,

            ///
            Most experts date
            FIVE in March 1888, after
            SCAN, but Watson states it
            was in September of 1887, so
            “…once by a woman…”
            cannot be SCAN, which
            occurred at earliest in March
            of 1888.
            ///

            Chronology apart, if somebody *other* than Irene had beaten TGD, wouldn't Watson have mentioned it somewhere? The fact that he didn't possibly indicates that Irene beat Holmes.

            And Watson got many dates wrong, didn't he? Or deliberately obfuscated them to protect key people. And SCAN has one of Holmes' most famous clients, so he possibly gave a fake date.

            Regards,

            Balaji
          • samarjitsinghbons
            If Watson was true over the experts then this would be answer- https://in.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20130811191228AA4gwRr
            Message 5 of 10 , Mar 27, 2014
              If Watson was true over the experts then this would be answer-
              Regards,
              Samarjit 
            • Philip K. Jones
              Balaji: You are certainly correct when you say that Watson got many dates wrong. One has only to read Wisteria Lodge to see that dates were NOT his forte.
              Message 6 of 10 , Mar 27, 2014
                
                Balaji:
                 
                You are certainly correct when you say that Watson got many dates wrong.  One has only to read "Wisteria Lodge" to see that dates were NOT his forte.  The problem with dates in The Canon is that there are SURELY errors among the dates given.  As a scholar, when examining the Writings, I MUST make choices from among obvious mistakes, possible inaccuracies and probably accurate dates.  As a logician, my only realistic choice is to accept "Occam's (William of Ockham's) Razor" as a starting point.  If Dr. Watson says the date is 'thus and such,' then I must accept it barring firm evidence that his given date is an error.  If I do NOT do that, then I can mire myself in deep doo-doo assuming some likely but un-proven date in place of Watson's statement.
                 
                I am a trained Mathematician with a graduate degree specializing in Statistics and more than forty years of professional work in Systems Design and consulting.  Long ago I learned to make as few assumptions as possible about any situation without strong proof to support my wishes or opinions.  Any attempt to date the Canonical tales that begins with the assumption that Watson's dates are WRONG is leaving immense holes in one's logic path.  One has only to look at the shambles that resulted from Baring-Gould's attempts at dating to see the results of that road.
                 
                My preference is to start with Watson's dating in any given case and then to assume otherwise if and only if strong proof can be found that he is wrong.  My PERSONAL opinion is that the fault lies with Doyle, who seldom paid much attention to dates and assumed that the first few tales actually occurred in the sequence in which they had been written, but that merely shifts the onus from Dr. Watson to Dr. Doyle, a mere change of physicians.
                 
                Submitted respectfully:
                 
                Philip K. Jones
                pkenj@...
                An Ill-dressed Vagabond
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 8:42 AM
                Subject: SHSI Re: !! The humbleness of Sherlock Holmes !!

                 


                Hi Philip,

                ///
                Most experts date
                FIVE in March 1888, after
                SCAN, but Watson states it
                was in September of 1887, so
                “…once by a woman…”
                cannot be SCAN, which
                occurred at earliest in March
                of 1888.
                ///

                Chronology apart, if somebody *other* than Irene had beaten TGD, wouldn't Watson have mentioned it somewhere? The fact that he didn't possibly indicates that Irene beat Holmes.

                And Watson got many dates wrong, didn't he? Or deliberately obfuscated them to protect key people. And SCAN has one of Holmes' most famous clients, so he possibly gave a fake date.

                Regards,

                Balaji

              • Philip K. Jones
                Dates! Dates! Dates! Each of the four events cited MUST predate The Five Orange Pips. Prove each date, do not simply assume. Submitted respectfully:
                Message 7 of 10 , Mar 27, 2014
                  
                  Dates!  Dates!  Dates!
                   
                  Each of the four events cited MUST predate "The Five Orange Pips."  Prove each date, do not simply assume.
                   
                  Submitted respectfully:
                   
                  Philip K. Jones
                  pkenj@...
                  An Ill-dressed Vagabond
                   
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 8:59 AM
                  Subject: SHSI Re: !! The humbleness of Sherlock Holmes !!

                   

                  If Watson was true over the experts then this would be answer-

                  Regards,
                  Samarjit 

                • Balaji Narasimhan
                  Hi Philip, /// My PERSONAL opinion is that the fault lies with Doyle, who seldom paid much attention to dates /// Remember that discussion we had about Doyle s
                  Message 8 of 10 , Mar 28, 2014
                    Hi Philip,

                    ///
                    My PERSONAL opinion
                    is that the fault lies with
                    Doyle, who seldom paid
                    much attention to dates
                    ///

                    Remember that discussion we had about Doyle's methods? I think Doyle was so keen on the methods of deduction that he couldn't care two hoots for dates. Of course, he would have had no idea that decades after he wrote a line like "...beaten four times..." people would be analysing it! :-)

                    Regards,

                    Balaji
                  • Philip K. Jones
                    My friend: My attitude about Doyle s relationship with Sherlock Holmes is pretty much explained by what I wrote in my article, Doyle and the Illusion of
                    Message 9 of 10 , Mar 29, 2014
                      
                      My friend:
                       
                      My attitude about Doyle's relationship with Sherlock Holmes is pretty much explained by what I wrote in my article, "Doyle and the Illusion of Holmes."  I believe that article may appear in the next issue of the newsletter or I can supply copies upon request.
                       
                      Sincerely:
                       
                      Phil
                       
                      Philip K. Jones
                      pkenj@...
                      An Ill-dressed Vagabond
                       
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      Sent: Friday, March 28, 2014 9:49 PM
                      Subject: SHSI Re: !! The humbleness of Sherlock Holmes !!

                       


                      Hi Philip,

                      ///
                      My PERSONAL opinion
                      is that the fault lies with
                      Doyle, who seldom paid
                      much attention to dates
                      ///

                      Remember that discussion we had about Doyle's methods? I think Doyle was so keen on the methods of deduction that he couldn't care two hoots for dates. Of course, he would have had no idea that decades after he wrote a line like "...beaten four times..." people would be analysing it! :-)

                      Regards,

                      Balaji

                    • Tim Symonds
                      I d certainly like a copy, Phil! I recall reading that Doyle s mother had no such reservations about Holmes (or the money it brought in)! She was really
                      Message 10 of 10 , Mar 29, 2014

                        I'd certainly like a copy, Phil!  I recall reading that Doyle's mother had no such reservations about Holmes (or the money it brought in)!  She was really upset when Doyle seemed to have bumped Holmes off at the Reichenbach.

                         

                        Much appreciated.

                         

                        Tim

                         

                        From: SherlockHolmesSocietyofIndia@... [mailto:SherlockHolmesSocietyofIndia@...] On Behalf Of Philip K. Jones
                        Sent: 29 March 2014 14:58
                        To: SherlockHolmesSocietyofIndia@...
                        Subject: Re: SHSI Re: !! The humbleness of Sherlock Holmes !!

                         

                         

                        

                        My friend:

                         

                        My attitude about Doyle's relationship with Sherlock Holmes is pretty much explained by what I wrote in my article, "Doyle and the Illusion of Holmes."  I believe that article may appear in the next issue of the newsletter or I can supply copies upon request.

                         

                        Sincerely:

                         

                        Phil

                         

                        Philip K. Jones
                        pkenj@...
                        An Ill-dressed Vagabond

                         

                        ----- Original Message -----

                        Sent: Friday, March 28, 2014 9:49 PM

                        Subject: SHSI Re: !! The humbleness of Sherlock Holmes !!

                         

                         


                        Hi Philip,

                        ///
                        My PERSONAL opinion
                        is that the fault lies with
                        Doyle, who seldom paid
                        much attention to dates
                        ///

                        Remember that discussion we had about Doyle's methods? I think Doyle was so keen on the methods of deduction that he couldn't care two hoots for dates. Of course, he would have had no idea that decades after he wrote a line like "...beaten four times..." people would be analysing it! :-)

                        Regards,

                        Balaji

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