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Re: [Trainers Forum] On My Being a Trainer

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  • Sonali K
    Hello All, I think it is only appropriate that we all behave like good professionals and adults and stop mailing any further on the original post by Mr. Vijay
    Message 1 of 14 , Jun 30, 2010
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      Hello All,

      I think it is only appropriate that we all behave like good professionals and adults and stop mailing any further on the original post by Mr. Vijay Kumar.  The discussion is withdrawn and I am sure each one of us feel very strongly about our professions.  Let us hold that respect for ourselves and our work.

      Happy training to all of us !!

      Regards,
      Sonali Karandikar
      IBM India Pvt Ltd.(Pune)

      On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 6:45 PM, vijay batra <veekaybatra@...> wrote:
       

      Dear Vijay,
      This step of yours is unwarranted. Respect all views, deflect those which are not acceptable to you. You will agree that effective communication is not what you want to say but what the reciepient percieves.
       
      Its a very vibrant forum, enjoy the views of others as they will enrich you about the prevalent thoughts on various subjects in the society and our participants are from the same society with the same thoughts.
       
      Hope you are with me,
      Cheers
      Col(Retd) Vijay Batra,SM
      Bangalore
      Mob-9900265542


      From: Vijay Kumar <vijnamb@...>
      To: satish nair <satishsnair@...>
      Cc: Ajit K. Kamath-WizTalks India <ajitkkamath@...>; trainers_forum@...
      Sent: Wed, 30 June, 2010 1:00:45 AM
      Subject: Re: [Trainers Forum] On My Being a Trainer

       

      Dear friends,

       

      My original post here was meant to generate a professional discussion from the forum members on the way the larger aspects of human development process in the changing world is being missed out at familial, institutional and organisational levels and the way human development professions like teaching and training are becoming, as per my observation, unattractive for most people who are actually capable of making positive contributions into this process. The extract from my post as given below was meant to make this concern of mine clear.

       

      Extract - “The time ahead, especially for Indian society, is that of transformation of people and the often self-defeating social / organisational environment they exist in, in the forms of families, educational institutions and workplaces. The said transformation has to take place only through people who are capable of dealing with this human process. In India, most educational institutions are starved of capable teachers and trainers and yet not many would like to venture into these fields mainly because of the relatively poorer rewards they are likely to get from them. Hardly any organisation has training, human development and organisational development as a strategic business element in its development philosophy.”

       

      I feel some of the respondents have missed the above totally and have taken off on a tangent, riding on their own convenient presumptions (and not on what I have actually tried to convey). I deeply regret that my post provided subtle marketing opportunities to some of them wherein they tried to promote their training programmes directly or their business contact information through the signature fields bearing the details.

       

      I withdraw my topic, even at the risk of my being condemned as a person who could not face criticism, because I strongly feel that under the given circumstances, a decent, professional and intellectually stimulating discussion on it is not possible.

       

      Regards,

       

      Vijay Kumar


      On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 10:04 AM, satish nair <satishsnair@ yahoo.com> wrote:

      Hi,

       

      The  key  issue  here  is that  in most cases:

       

      1. People are not able  to make themselves an  object of  interest. Too  often, they   offer  commodity services, unable  to differentiate  themselves. In most cases, I am pretty  sure  they  would not be  able to convince  themselves of the  benefits  of   thier service , forget the  client.

       

      2. They  are  interested  in making   a sale  in the first  meeting. However  are   unwilling to develop a  relationship  that  puts "value on the table"  to the  client.

       

      3. An inability  to speak  conceptually  which means an inability  to  construct a  service  using  examples, anecdotes, understanding of  status  quo etc.Intead   adopting a "twice  in a week  follow up strategy". This is   bound to  irritate    anyone especially senior  management  since  you havent  established peer  equity  wth them.

       

       

      I  conduct  courses  on  initial approach,  objection  overcoming, negotation skills, value based   pricing etc, in addition to consulting  on varied  aspects of business developmement, marketing, customer service, change  management and program management.  If anyone is  interested, you  could  reach out to me  on my cell   number listed below.

       

       

       

       

      Regards,

       

      Satish S. Nair

       

      098201 49538

       




      From: Ajit K. Kamath-WizTalks India <ajitkkamath@ yahoo.com>
      To: vijnamb <vijnamb@gmail. com>; trainers_forum@ yahoogroups. co.in
      Sent: Mon, June 28, 2010 4:08:32 PM
      Subject: Re: [Trainers Forum] On My Being a Trainer

       

      Dear Vijay Kumar,

      Welcome to the other side!!! ... and it is not as green as it looked!

      My opinion on your thoughts:
      1.    I see many like you every month and have nothing to offer to you guysa.
      This is happening because of the 'Business Development' guys appointed by the Training Companies. Targets, pressures and "business goals" are making the marketing guys "pester" the HR for business. They virtually follow-up every week. The strategy is get a meeting and then sell.
      b. Due to the above the freelancers have to also 'be in touch (market)' on a regular basis ... "out of sight, out of mind".
      Therefore I'm not surprised at this attitude. This is bound to happen to anyone on the other side of aggressive follow-ups. However I'm worried that if this continues, the HR will consider Trainers a "pain" and may start avoiding them. My fear is that this has already started.

      2. I don't think you can impress the trainees who are young, bubbly and raring to go! How do you think you can match their experiences of the video games with shock and awe in your training programmes?

      Presently, I haven't experienced this statement. Usually youngsters have recommended my programs and therefore I suppose, gets taken care of. Plus if one can put up some videos on your blog showing their methodology then the client can check whether the trainer would connect to young audiences. This statement is used generally when a Trainer looks elderly and the trainers energy during the meeting is low.

      Oh, - you don't have certifications and international modules
      I have answered this question in detail in my previous post in the forum and also posted on my blog www.wiztalks. blogspot. com.

      Actually I am not interested in hearing what you are talking about, but I am sitting with you out of sheer courtesy
      This happens with all consultants / and possibly with other service professionals too. Can we avoid this? The positive side is that at least they are meeting us whereas I know many HR Heads not willing to meet and discuss with Trainers at all. Your meetings may be due to the respect to your military background.


      What will I do if you start training our people? In any case the owners are happy the way our people are and they don't want to spend money on time-wasters like training!

      I don't think the HR really thinks like this. The industry does think that training is important and does enhance their people behaviour. What you mention could be true about 10 years back but today I see that they consider L&D important. They may not like particular trainers (for their own reasons) and therefore may say this but I haven't faced this much.
      However a few PSU's I have met, have had this attitude but this is more so because the person in HR comes to the position as a transfer and some of them feel that this is more like a punishment and/or transition posting. On the other hand, few PSU's are quite progressive in their attitude towards training.
      I today even see SME's (the younger owners) asking for training.

      I surely don't agree with the last part of the email. In fact I have companies calling me to conduct workshops and HR Heads / Owners discussing intricate people issues too. Even educational instituations having been regularly calling us for lecturing / training assignements and I have a situation where I have had to say "no" to few colleges etc.

      What has changed is that today most of the clients have been aware of 'training standards' and go by the learner "feedback" (reaction sheet as well as a discussion with the participant) and if the training has been effective they will surely want the same trainer / company to deliver.

      What becomes difficult for new trainers (or 'come back' trainers) is that the companies may not be willing to experiment with someone new when they already have someone doing  great transfer of learnings. The other fear that they may have with come-back trainers is that what if they give an assigment to such trainers and in the meantime this person once again takes up a full-time employment somewhere... . what happens to their scheduled training?
       
      Warm regards
      Ajit
      Ajit K. Kamath
      | Sr. Trainer & Director | WizTalks India | +91 98203 58330 | ajitkamath@wiztalks .com |
      | Presentation Skills | Team Building | Effective Communication Skills | Leadership Development |  Personal Visioning & Time Management | Train The Trainers | Customer Service | Personality Enhancement | Dramatics & Narration Techniques | Strategic Leadership Communication through Story Telling |





      From: vijnamb <vijnamb@gmail. com>
      To: trainers_forum@ yahoogroups. co.in
      Sent: Sat, 26 June, 2010 9:51:56 PM
      Subject: [Trainers Forum] On My Being a Trainer

       

      Dearfriends,

      I thoughtof venting out a bit of cynicism through this post, hoping that some of myfellow forum members would express their reaction (either way) on what I haveto write. After my relatively shorter military service followed by various stintsin the corporate world including in some so called "top" level positions in HR,I returned recently to training and organisational development (OD), as inbetween, about ten years ago I had started a training and OD set up and havedone quite a few indoor and outdoor training programmes and workshops for manycorporate organisations so far. On the other hand, my set up has also done somesignificant OD works in some well-known organisations. This time around (aftermy current return to focussed OD and training activities) I am getting into astate of unexplainable discomfiture on facing the reactions of some of thelearning and development / HR brass of our clients, when I introduce myself asa trainer. What I often pick up from the conversations with them, appear to meto be conveying (though subtly) that,-

      1. I see many like you every month and have nothing to offer to you guys
      2. I don't think you can impress the trainees who are young, bubbly and raring to go! How do you think you can match their experiences of the video games with shock and awe in your training programmes?
      3. Oh, - you don't have certifications and international modules
      4. Actually I am not interested in hearing what you are talking about, but I am sitting with you out of sheer courtesy
      5. What will I do if you start training our people? In any case the owners are happy the way our people are and they don't want to spend money on time-wasters like training!

      …and manysimilar feelings!

      The timeahead, especially for Indian society, is that of transformation of people andthe often self-defeating social / organisational environment they exist in, inthe forms of families, educational institutions and workplaces. The said transformationhas to take place only through people who are capable of dealing with thishuman process. In India, most educational institutions arestarved of capable teachers and trainers and yet not many would like to ventureinto these fields mainly because of the relatively poorer rewards they arelikely to get from them. Hardly any organisation has training, humandevelopment and organisational development as a strategic business element inits development philosophy. Most people and organisations shy away from thehuman development / organisational development initiatives as if otherwise theirinner deficiencies would get exposed (like how people with severe mentalproblems avoid going to a psychiatrist or a psychologist, maintaining the falsebelief - "I am OK, as always").

      In mylatest meeting with the head of HR / training / OD of a large organisation, Iavoided giving an impression that I am a trainer. With this approach, this timeI felt that I could maintain my self-esteem slightly better during theconversations. On my return journey from that meeting, my inner self kept promptingto me – "drop the trainer bit from your personal profile". I may not succeed indoing so. But, I feel sad about the fact that this thought crept into me!

      Regards,

      Vijay Kumar








      --
      Sonali Karandikar
      +91 9820144877
    • Vijay Kumar
      Since I received three mails addressed to me directly, I feel that I need to reply them before winding up on the topic. The replies are as under: *Dear
      Message 2 of 14 , Jun 30, 2010
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        Since I received three mails addressed to me directly, I feel that I need to reply them before winding up on the topic. The replies are as under:

         

        Dear Satish,

         

        I do not have any comment on your comment on Ajit’s comment. As regards the marketing angle, the moderator of this group and the members of the forum may be in a better position to judge its ethicality. Thanks for offering to talk to me over the phone which I will do soon, once the dust here settles down.

         

        Dear Ajit,

         

        The clarification you are seeking is like this – I sought the reactions of my fellow forum members on the topic (which centered around the current plight of human development professionals like teachers and trainers and not on which type of trainers / training firms are successful and which type are not), hoping that the discussion would revolve around the core issues of the future of human development and people’s attitude towards it in India. What I could gather from your mail is that you have presumed certain conditions (like the pestering trainers and the annoyed HR people) to prove your points which in my case were not prevailing. Now making my personal position on HR clearer - I have headed the HR functions of two large multi-location (pan India as well as global) organisations with 4000 and 6000 people, as VP HR and Chief People Officer respectively, in turn, till recently. Being fundamentally an HR professional, I would be the last person to put HR function in any negative perspective intentionally. I had always been trying to propagate the inescapable significance of people function (HR) in organisations. But I still stand by my statement that some of the learning and development / HR brass of organisations are not alive to the changing face of people development and the need for aligning people function with the business activities of the organisations, which has been putting question marks on the credibility of HR function itself in some organisations I know of. This is not my personal view point alone, but one which has been discussed in many forums and the media. The June 2010 edition of “Indian Management” which is focusing on people management is worth reading in the context of what we are trying to discuss.

         

        As regards the marketing angle, I leave the judgment on using business details in the signature block etc. of the posts to the moderator and the members of our forum. My personal view is that we are here in this forum as individual professionals and not as members / owners of businesses. We should be dealing with it only as such, avoiding business goals, even subtly.

         

        Dear Col. Batra,

         

        Thanks for the mail. I began this discussion anticipating reactions either way, because I was open and willing to accept criticisms. But what I failed to anticipate was the way the discussion has taken off on a tangent which literally killed the purpose that I envisaged. I felt that neither taking positions and standing by it harshly with a fighting spirit nor engaging in self-gratification is professional discussion. Hence my current predicament!

         

        Regards,

         

        Vijay


        On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 10:41 AM, Sonali K <sonalik.98@...> wrote:
        Hello All,

        I think it is only appropriate that we all behave like good professionals and adults and stop mailing any further on the original post by Mr. Vijay Kumar.  The discussion is withdrawn and I am sure each one of us feel very strongly about our professions.  Let us hold that respect for ourselves and our work.

        Happy training to all of us !!

        Regards,
        Sonali Karandikar
        IBM India Pvt Ltd.(Pune)

        On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 6:45 PM, vijay batra <veekaybatra@...> wrote:
         

        Dear Vijay,
        This step of yours is unwarranted. Respect all views, deflect those which are not acceptable to you. You will agree that effective communication is not what you want to say but what the reciepient percieves.
         
        Its a very vibrant forum, enjoy the views of others as they will enrich you about the prevalent thoughts on various subjects in the society and our participants are from the same society with the same thoughts.
         
        Hope you are with me,
        Cheers
        Col(Retd) Vijay Batra,SM
        Bangalore
        Mob-9900265542


        From: Vijay Kumar <vijnamb@...>
        To: satish nair <satishsnair@...>
        Cc: Ajit K. Kamath-WizTalks India <ajitkkamath@...>; trainers_forum@...
        Sent: Wed, 30 June, 2010 1:00:45 AM
        Subject: Re: [Trainers Forum] On My Being a Trainer

         

        Dear friends,

         

        My original post here was meant to generate a professional discussion from the forum members on the way the larger aspects of human development process in the changing world is being missed out at familial, institutional and organisational levels and the way human development professions like teaching and training are becoming, as per my observation, unattractive for most people who are actually capable of making positive contributions into this process. The extract from my post as given below was meant to make this concern of mine clear.

         

        Extract - “The time ahead, especially for Indian society, is that of transformation of people and the often self-defeating social / organisational environment they exist in, in the forms of families, educational institutions and workplaces. The said transformation has to take place only through people who are capable of dealing with this human process. In India, most educational institutions are starved of capable teachers and trainers and yet not many would like to venture into these fields mainly because of the relatively poorer rewards they are likely to get from them. Hardly any organisation has training, human development and organisational development as a strategic business element in its development philosophy.”

         

        I feel some of the respondents have missed the above totally and have taken off on a tangent, riding on their own convenient presumptions (and not on what I have actually tried to convey). I deeply regret that my post provided subtle marketing opportunities to some of them wherein they tried to promote their training programmes directly or their business contact information through the signature fields bearing the details.

         

        I withdraw my topic, even at the risk of my being condemned as a person who could not face criticism, because I strongly feel that under the given circumstances, a decent, professional and intellectually stimulating discussion on it is not possible.

         

        Regards,

         

        Vijay Kumar


        On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 10:04 AM, satish nair <satishsnair@ yahoo.com> wrote:

        Hi,

         

        The  key  issue  here  is that  in most cases:

         

        1. People are not able  to make themselves an  object of  interest. Too  often, they   offer  commodity services, unable  to differentiate  themselves. In most cases, I am pretty  sure  they  would not be  able to convince  themselves of the  benefits  of   thier service , forget the  client.

         

        2. They  are  interested  in making   a sale  in the first  meeting. However  are   unwilling to develop a  relationship  that  puts "value on the table"  to the  client.

         

        3. An inability  to speak  conceptually  which means an inability  to  construct a  service  using  examples, anecdotes, understanding of  status  quo etc.Intead   adopting a "twice  in a week  follow up strategy". This is   bound to  irritate    anyone especially senior  management  since  you havent  established peer  equity  wth them.

         

         

        I  conduct  courses  on  initial approach,  objection  overcoming, negotation skills, value based   pricing etc, in addition to consulting  on varied  aspects of business developmement, marketing, customer service, change  management and program management.  If anyone is  interested, you  could  reach out to me  on my cell   number listed below.

         

         

         

         

        Regards,

         

        Satish S. Nair

         

        098201 49538

         




        From: Ajit K. Kamath-WizTalks India <ajitkkamath@ yahoo.com>
        To: vijnamb <vijnamb@gmail. com>; trainers_forum@ yahoogroups. co.in
        Sent: Mon, June 28, 2010 4:08:32 PM
        Subject: Re: [Trainers Forum] On My Being a Trainer

         

        Dear Vijay Kumar,

        Welcome to the other side!!! ... and it is not as green as it looked!

        My opinion on your thoughts:
        1.    I see many like you every month and have nothing to offer to you guysa.
        This is happening because of the 'Business Development' guys appointed by the Training Companies. Targets, pressures and "business goals" are making the marketing guys "pester" the HR for business. They virtually follow-up every week. The strategy is get a meeting and then sell.
        b. Due to the above the freelancers have to also 'be in touch (market)' on a regular basis ... "out of sight, out of mind".
        Therefore I'm not surprised at this attitude. This is bound to happen to anyone on the other side of aggressive follow-ups. However I'm worried that if this continues, the HR will consider Trainers a "pain" and may start avoiding them. My fear is that this has already started.

        2. I don't think you can impress the trainees who are young, bubbly and raring to go! How do you think you can match their experiences of the video games with shock and awe in your training programmes?

        Presently, I haven't experienced this statement. Usually youngsters have recommended my programs and therefore I suppose, gets taken care of. Plus if one can put up some videos on your blog showing their methodology then the client can check whether the trainer would connect to young audiences. This statement is used generally when a Trainer looks elderly and the trainers energy during the meeting is low.

        Oh, - you don't have certifications and international modules
        I have answered this question in detail in my previous post in the forum and also posted on my blog www.wiztalks. blogspot. com.

        Actually I am not interested in hearing what you are talking about, but I am sitting with you out of sheer courtesy
        This happens with all consultants / and possibly with other service professionals too. Can we avoid this? The positive side is that at least they are meeting us whereas I know many HR Heads not willing to meet and discuss with Trainers at all. Your meetings may be due to the respect to your military background.


        What will I do if you start training our people? In any case the owners are happy the way our people are and they don't want to spend money on time-wasters like training!

        I don't think the HR really thinks like this. The industry does think that training is important and does enhance their people behaviour. What you mention could be true about 10 years back but today I see that they consider L&D important. They may not like particular trainers (for their own reasons) and therefore may say this but I haven't faced this much.
        However a few PSU's I have met, have had this attitude but this is more so because the person in HR comes to the position as a transfer and some of them feel that this is more like a punishment and/or transition posting. On the other hand, few PSU's are quite progressive in their attitude towards training.
        I today even see SME's (the younger owners) asking for training.

        I surely don't agree with the last part of the email. In fact I have companies calling me to conduct workshops and HR Heads / Owners discussing intricate people issues too. Even educational instituations having been regularly calling us for lecturing / training assignements and I have a situation where I have had to say "no" to few colleges etc.

        What has changed is that today most of the clients have been aware of 'training standards' and go by the learner "feedback" (reaction sheet as well as a discussion with the participant) and if the training has been effective they will surely want the same trainer / company to deliver.

        What becomes difficult for new trainers (or 'come back' trainers) is that the companies may not be willing to experiment with someone new when they already have someone doing  great transfer of learnings. The other fear that they may have with come-back trainers is that what if they give an assigment to such trainers and in the meantime this person once again takes up a full-time employment somewhere... . what happens to their scheduled training?
         
        Warm regards
        Ajit
        Ajit K. Kamath
        | Sr. Trainer & Director | WizTalks India | +91 98203 58330 | ajitkamath@wiztalks .com |
        | Presentation Skills | Team Building | Effective Communication Skills | Leadership Development |  Personal Visioning & Time Management | Train The Trainers | Customer Service | Personality Enhancement | Dramatics & Narration Techniques | Strategic Leadership Communication through Story Telling |





        From: vijnamb <vijnamb@gmail. com>
        To: trainers_forum@ yahoogroups. co.in
        Sent: Sat, 26 June, 2010 9:51:56 PM
        Subject: [Trainers Forum] On My Being a Trainer

         

        Dearfriends,

        I thoughtof venting out a bit of cynicism through this post, hoping that some of myfellow forum members would express their reaction (either way) on what I haveto write. After my relatively shorter military service followed by various stintsin the corporate world including in some so called "top" level positions in HR,I returned recently to training and organisational development (OD), as inbetween, about ten years ago I had started a training and OD set up and havedone quite a few indoor and outdoor training programmes and workshops for manycorporate organisations so far. On the other hand, my set up has also done somesignificant OD works in some well-known organisations. This time around (aftermy current return to focussed OD and training activities) I am getting into astate of unexplainable discomfiture on facing the reactions of some of thelearning and development / HR brass of our clients, when I introduce myself asa trainer. What I often pick up from the conversations with them, appear to meto be conveying (though subtly) that,-

        1. I see many like you every month and have nothing to offer to you guys
        2. I don't think you can impress the trainees who are young, bubbly and raring to go! How do you think you can match their experiences of the video games with shock and awe in your training programmes?
        3. Oh, - you don't have certifications and international modules
        4. Actually I am not interested in hearing what you are talking about, but I am sitting with you out of sheer courtesy
        5. What will I do if you start training our people? In any case the owners are happy the way our people are and they don't want to spend money on time-wasters like training!

        …and manysimilar feelings!

        The timeahead, especially for Indian society, is that of transformation of people andthe often self-defeating social / organisational environment they exist in, inthe forms of families, educational institutions and workplaces. The said transformationhas to take place only through people who are capable of dealing with thishuman process. In India, most educational institutions arestarved of capable teachers and trainers and yet not many would like to ventureinto these fields mainly because of the relatively poorer rewards they arelikely to get from them. Hardly any organisation has training, humandevelopment and organisational development as a strategic business element inits development philosophy. Most people and organisations shy away from thehuman development / organisational development initiatives as if otherwise theirinner deficiencies would get exposed (like how people with severe mentalproblems avoid going to a psychiatrist or a psychologist, maintaining the falsebelief - "I am OK, as always").

        In mylatest meeting with the head of HR / training / OD of a large organisation, Iavoided giving an impression that I am a trainer. With this approach, this timeI felt that I could maintain my self-esteem slightly better during theconversations. On my return journey from that meeting, my inner self kept promptingto me – "drop the trainer bit from your personal profile". I may not succeed indoing so. But, I feel sad about the fact that this thought crept into me!

        Regards,

        Vijay Kumar








        --
        Sonali Karandikar
        +91 9820144877

      • sony samuel
        Dear Members, I read through the entire posts of all the members of all my community. Every coin has two sides to which I do agree and accept. I have worked
        Message 3 of 14 , Jul 3, 2010
        View Source
        • 0 Attachment
          Dear Members,

          I read through the entire posts of all the members of all my community. Every coin has two sides to which I do agree and accept.

          I have worked with Vijay Sir for more than 2 years under him and have visited with Sir most of the company respective HR heads. While I do understand there are many layers and sub layers to this debate, what we hope is as companies become more competitive, they would attach equal importance to their L and D which over a period of time is playing a pivotal role.

          Though I have moved on, the training inculcated remains the same which is to build a better and stronger HR which involves training which would mean a fitter workforce across companies.

          And we do believe that's the vision with everybody, otherwise we wouldn't have come into this profession.

          Regards & Thanks,
          Sony Samuel

          --- On Thu, 1/7/10, Vijay Kumar <vijnamb@...> wrote:

          From: Vijay Kumar <vijnamb@...>
          Subject: Re: [Trainers Forum] On My Being a Trainer
          To: "Sonali K" <sonalik.98@...>
          Cc: "vijay batra" <veekaybatra@...>, trainers_forum@...
          Date: Thursday, 1 July, 2010, 11:58 AM

           

          Since I received three mails addressed to me directly, I feel that I need to reply them before winding up on the topic. The replies are as under:

           

          Dear Satish,

           

          I do not have any comment on your comment on Ajit’s comment. As regards the marketing angle, the moderator of this group and the members of the forum may be in a better position to judge its ethicality. Thanks for offering to talk to me over the phone which I will do soon, once the dust here settles down.

           

          Dear Ajit,

           

          The clarification you are seeking is like this – I sought the reactions of my fellow forum members on the topic (which centered around the current plight of human development professionals like teachers and trainers and not on which type of trainers / training firms are successful and which type are not), hoping that the discussion would revolve around the core issues of the future of human development and people’s attitude towards it in India. What I could gather from your mail is that you have presumed certain conditions (like the pestering trainers and the annoyed HR people) to prove your points which in my case were not prevailing. Now making my personal position on HR clearer - I have headed the HR functions of two large multi-location (pan India as well as global) organisations with 4000 and 6000 people, as VP HR and Chief People Officer respectively, in turn, till recently. Being fundamentally an HR professional, I would be the last person to put HR function in any negative perspective intentionally. I had always been trying to propagate the inescapable significance of people function (HR) in organisations. But I still stand by my statement that some of the learning and development / HR brass of organisations are not alive to the changing face of people development and the need for aligning people function with the business activities of the organisations, which has been putting question marks on the credibility of HR function itself in some organisations I know of. This is not my personal view point alone, but one which has been discussed in many forums and the media. The June 2010 edition of “Indian Management” which is focusing on people management is worth reading in the context of what we are trying to discuss.

           

          As regards the marketing angle, I leave the judgment on using business details in the signature block etc. of the posts to the moderator and the members of our forum. My personal view is that we are here in this forum as individual professionals and not as members / owners of businesses. We should be dealing with it only as such, avoiding business goals, even subtly.

           

          Dear Col. Batra,

           

          Thanks for the mail. I began this discussion anticipating reactions either way, because I was open and willing to accept criticisms. But what I failed to anticipate was the way the discussion has taken off on a tangent which literally killed the purpose that I envisaged. I felt that neither taking positions and standing by it harshly with a fighting spirit nor engaging in self-gratification is professional discussion. Hence my current predicament!

           

          Regards,

           

          Vijay


          On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 10:41 AM, Sonali K <sonalik.98@gmail. com> wrote:
          Hello All,

          I think it is only appropriate that we all behave like good professionals and adults and stop mailing any further on the original post by Mr. Vijay Kumar.  The discussion is withdrawn and I am sure each one of us feel very strongly about our professions.  Let us hold that respect for ourselves and our work.

          Happy training to all of us !!

          Regards,
          Sonali Karandikar
          IBM India Pvt Ltd.(Pune)

          On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 6:45 PM, vijay batra <veekaybatra@ yahoo.com> wrote:
           

          Dear Vijay,
          This step of yours is unwarranted. Respect all views, deflect those which are not acceptable to you. You will agree that effective communication is not what you want to say but what the reciepient percieves.
           
          Its a very vibrant forum, enjoy the views of others as they will enrich you about the prevalent thoughts on various subjects in the society and our participants are from the same society with the same thoughts.
           
          Hope you are with me,
          Cheers
          Col(Retd) Vijay Batra,SM
          Bangalore
          Mob-9900265542


          From: Vijay Kumar <vijnamb@gmail. com>
          To: satish nair <satishsnair@ yahoo.com>
          Cc: Ajit K. Kamath-WizTalks India <ajitkkamath@ yahoo.com>; trainers_forum@ yahoogroups. co.in
          Sent: Wed, 30 June, 2010 1:00:45 AM
          Subject: Re: [Trainers Forum] On My Being a Trainer

           

          Dear friends,

           

          My original post here was meant to generate a professional discussion from the forum members on the way the larger aspects of human development process in the changing world is being missed out at familial, institutional and organisational levels and the way human development professions like teaching and training are becoming, as per my observation, unattractive for most people who are actually capable of making positive contributions into this process. The extract from my post as given below was meant to make this concern of mine clear.

           

          Extract - “The time ahead, especially for Indian society, is that of transformation of people and the often self-defeating social / organisational environment they exist in, in the forms of families, educational institutions and workplaces. The said transformation has to take place only through people who are capable of dealing with this human process. In India, most educational institutions are starved of capable teachers and trainers and yet not many would like to venture into these fields mainly because of the relatively poorer rewards they are likely to get from them. Hardly any organisation has training, human development and organisational development as a strategic business element in its development philosophy.”

           

          I feel some of the respondents have missed the above totally and have taken off on a tangent, riding on their own convenient presumptions (and not on what I have actually tried to convey). I deeply regret that my post provided subtle marketing opportunities to some of them wherein they tried to promote their training programmes directly or their business contact information through the signature fields bearing the details.

           

          I withdraw my topic, even at the risk of my being condemned as a person who could not face criticism, because I strongly feel that under the given circumstances, a decent, professional and intellectually stimulating discussion on it is not possible.

           

          Regards,

           

          Vijay Kumar


          On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 10:04 AM, satish nair <satishsnair@ yahoo.com> wrote:

          Hi,

           

          The  key  issue  here  is that  in most cases:

           

          1. People are not able  to make themselves an  object of  interest. Too  often, they   offer  commodity services, unable  to differentiate  themselves. In most cases, I am pretty  sure  they  would not be  able to convince  themselves of the  benefits  of   thier service , forget the  client.

           

          2. They  are  interested  in making   a sale  in the first  meeting. However  are   unwilling to develop a  relationship  that  puts "value on the table"  to the  client.

           

          3. An inability  to speak  conceptually  which means an inability  to  construct a  service  using  examples, anecdotes, understanding of  status  quo etc.Intead   adopting a "twice  in a week  follow up strategy". This is   bound to  irritate    anyone especially senior  management  since  you havent  established peer  equity  wth them.

           

           

          I  conduct  courses  on  initial approach,  objection  overcoming, negotation skills, value based   pricing etc, in addition to consulting  on varied  aspects of business developmement, marketing, customer service, change  management and program management.  If anyone is  interested, you  could  reach out to me  on my cell   number listed below.

           

           

           

           

          Regards,

           

          Satish S. Nair

           

          098201 49538

           




          From: Ajit K. Kamath-WizTalks India <ajitkkamath@ yahoo.com>
          To: vijnamb <vijnamb@gmail. com>; trainers_forum@ yahoogroups. co.in
          Sent: Mon, June 28, 2010 4:08:32 PM
          Subject: Re: [Trainers Forum] On My Being a Trainer

           

          Dear Vijay Kumar,

          Welcome to the other side!!! ... and it is not as green as it looked!

          My opinion on your thoughts:
          1.    I see many like you every month and have nothing to offer to you guysa.
          This is happening because of the 'Business Development' guys appointed by the Training Companies. Targets, pressures and "business goals" are making the marketing guys "pester" the HR for business. They virtually follow-up every week. The strategy is get a meeting and then sell.
          b. Due to the above the freelancers have to also 'be in touch (market)' on a regular basis ... "out of sight, out of mind".
          Therefore I'm not surprised at this attitude. This is bound to happen to anyone on the other side of aggressive follow-ups. However I'm worried that if this continues, the HR will consider Trainers a "pain" and may start avoiding them. My fear is that this has already started.

          2. I don't think you can impress the trainees who are young, bubbly and raring to go! How do you think you can match their experiences of the video games with shock and awe in your training programmes?

          Presently, I haven't experienced this statement. Usually youngsters have recommended my programs and therefore I suppose, gets taken care of. Plus if one can put up some videos on your blog showing their methodology then the client can check whether the trainer would connect to young audiences. This statement is used generally when a Trainer looks elderly and the trainers energy during the meeting is low.

          Oh, - you don't have certifications and international modules
          I have answered this question in detail in my previous post in the forum and also posted on my blog www.wiztalks. blogspot. com.

          Actually I am not interested in hearing what you are talking about, but I am sitting with you out of sheer courtesy
          This happens with all consultants / and possibly with other service professionals too. Can we avoid this? The positive side is that at least they are meeting us whereas I know many HR Heads not willing to meet and discuss with Trainers at all. Your meetings may be due to the respect to your military background.


          What will I do if you start training our people? In any case the owners are happy the way our people are and they don't want to spend money on time-wasters like training!

          I don't think the HR really thinks like this. The industry does think that training is important and does enhance their people behaviour. What you mention could be true about 10 years back but today I see that they consider L&D important. They may not like particular trainers (for their own reasons) and therefore may say this but I haven't faced this much.
          However a few PSU's I have met, have had this attitude but this is more so because the person in HR comes to the position as a transfer and some of them feel that this is more like a punishment and/or transition posting. On the other hand, few PSU's are quite progressive in their attitude towards training.
          I today even see SME's (the younger owners) asking for training.

          I surely don't agree with the last part of the email. In fact I have companies calling me to conduct workshops and HR Heads / Owners discussing intricate people issues too. Even educational instituations having been regularly calling us for lecturing / training assignements and I have a situation where I have had to say "no" to few colleges etc.

          What has changed is that today most of the clients have been aware of 'training standards' and go by the learner "feedback" (reaction sheet as well as a discussion with the participant) and if the training has been effective they will surely want the same trainer / company to deliver.

          What becomes difficult for new trainers (or 'come back' trainers) is that the companies may not be willing to experiment with someone new when they already have someone doing  great transfer of learnings. The other fear that they may have with come-back trainers is that what if they give an assigment to such trainers and in the meantime this person once again takes up a full-time employment somewhere... . what happens to their scheduled training?
           
          Warm regards
          Ajit
          Ajit K. Kamath
          | Sr. Trainer & Director | WizTalks India | +91 98203 58330 | ajitkamath@wiztalks .com |
          | Presentation Skills | Team Building | Effective Communication Skills | Leadership Development |  Personal Visioning & Time Management | Train The Trainers | Customer Service | Personality Enhancement | Dramatics & Narration Techniques | Strategic Leadership Communication through Story Telling |





          From: vijnamb <vijnamb@gmail. com>
          To: trainers_forum@ yahoogroups. co.in
          Sent: Sat, 26 June, 2010 9:51:56 PM
          Subject: [Trainers Forum] On My Being a Trainer

           

          Dearfriends,

          I thoughtof venting out a bit of cynicism through this post, hoping that some of myfellow forum members would express their reaction (either way) on what I haveto write. After my relatively shorter military service followed by various stintsin the corporate world including in some so called "top" level positions in HR,I returned recently to training and organisational development (OD), as inbetween, about ten years ago I had started a training and OD set up and havedone quite a few indoor and outdoor training programmes and workshops for manycorporate organisations so far. On the other hand, my set up has also done somesignificant OD works in some well-known organisations. This time around (aftermy current return to focussed OD and training activities) I am getting into astate of unexplainable discomfiture on facing the reactions of some of thelearning and development / HR brass of our clients, when I introduce myself asa trainer. What I often pick up from the conversations with them, appear to meto be conveying (though subtly) that,-

          1. I see many like you every month and have nothing to offer to you guys
          2. I don't think you can impress the trainees who are young, bubbly and raring to go! How do you think you can match their experiences of the video games with shock and awe in your training programmes?
          3. Oh, - you don't have certifications and international modules
          4. Actually I am not interested in hearing what you are talking about, but I am sitting with you out of sheer courtesy
          5. What will I do if you start training our people? In any case the owners are happy the way our people are and they don't want to spend money on time-wasters like training!

          …and manysimilar feelings!

          The timeahead, especially for Indian society, is that of transformation of people andthe often self-defeating social / organisational environment they exist in, inthe forms of families, educational institutions and workplaces. The said transformationhas to take place only through people who are capable of dealing with thishuman process. In India, most educational institutions arestarved of capable teachers and trainers and yet not many would like to ventureinto these fields mainly because of the relatively poorer rewards they arelikely to get from them. Hardly any organisation has training, humandevelopment and organisational development as a strategic business element inits development philosophy. Most people and organisations shy away from thehuman development / organisational development initiatives as if otherwise theirinner deficiencies would get exposed (like how people with severe mentalproblems avoid going to a psychiatrist or a psychologist, maintaining the falsebelief - "I am OK, as always").

          In mylatest meeting with the head of HR / training / OD of a large organisation, Iavoided giving an impression that I am a trainer. With this approach, this timeI felt that I could maintain my self-esteem slightly better during theconversations. On my return journey from that meeting, my inner self kept promptingto me – "drop the trainer bit from your personal profile". I may not succeed indoing so. But, I feel sad about the fact that this thought crept into me!

          Regards,

          Vijay Kumar








          --
          Sonali Karandikar
          +91 9820144877


        • khandelwal.nishant@mahindra.com
          Friends, Greetings!! Being both a Trainer in Behavioural areas and Training Manager, I happen to come across/hear this question many a times. I am sure some of
          Message 4 of 14 , Jul 26, 2010
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            Friends,

             

            Greetings!!

             

            Being both a Trainer in Behavioural areas and Training Manager, I happen to come across/hear this question many a times. I am sure some of you also would have thought/questioned that way. Request your view points w.r.t. Behavioural/Motivational/Soft Skills Training

             

            “Should one have practiced before becoming a trainer?”  

             

            Should one have demonstrated as a good team player before taking training module on ‘team working’?

             

            Should one have worked as a Leader in a company/other organisations before facilitating a Leadership Training module?

             

            Is it ok if a person has gained knowledge from means other than actual working in an organization and then conduct training in that area, if he is able to ensure effective delivery as a trainer?

             

            Is it that there are some areas where we must have work experience and there are certain areas where we need not have work experience?

             

            Thanks & Regards,

            Nishant

            Manager- T&D, M&M

             



            ---DISCLAIMER---------------------------------------------------------------------------- The contents of this E-mail (including the contents of the enclosure/(s) or attachment/(s) if any) are privileged and confidential material of Mahindra and Mahindra Limited (M&M) and should not be disclosed to, used by or copied in any manner by anyone other than the intended addressee/(s). If this E-mail (including the enclosure/(s) or attachment/(s) if any ) has been received in error, please advise the sender immediately and delete it from your system. The views expressed in this E-mail message (including the enclosure/(s) or attachment/(s) if any) are those of the individual sender. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
          • Vinod S
            Hi Nishant, Good Queries !!!! My two small contribution on this : 1. In Behavioral Training, it is not possible to assume all roles in the organization by
            Message 5 of 14 , Jul 28, 2010
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              Hi Nishant, 

              Good Queries !!!!

              My two small contribution on this : 

              1.  In Behavioral Training, it is not possible to assume all roles in the organization by same individual. Eg. A trainer cannot be a Passive - A aggressive or an assertive at the same time  but when it comes to demonstration during a workshop, he should be able to do it with conviction

              2.  In skills training however, prior or current implementation functional role of all things mentioned in the program  gives a lot of credibility to trainer & also conviction in his suggestions comes out naturally. Eg. A successful leader / CEO may not be a great trainer but delivers his program very convincingly because he has been there /done that. 

              3. On acquired knowledge:  It is good to have a variety of case studies from cross section of Industries for the trainer to demonstrate versatility & he naturally comes across as a learned / respected individual.  


              Hope I have covered all the queries mentioned in your mail...
              Thanks
              Vinod 


                

              On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 11:24 AM, <khandelwal.nishant@...> wrote:
               

              Friends,

               

              Greetings!!

               

              Being both a Trainer in Behavioural areas and Training Manager, I happen to come across/hear this question many a times. I am sure some of you also would have thought/questioned that way. Request your view points w.r.t. Behavioural/Motivational/Soft Skills Training

               

              “Should one have practiced before becoming a trainer?”  

               

              Should one have demonstrated as a good team player before taking training module on ‘team working’?

               

              Should one have worked as a Leader in a company/other organisations before facilitating a Leadership Training module?

               

              Is it ok if a person has gained knowledge from means other than actual working in an organization and then conduct training in that area, if he is able to ensure effective delivery as a trainer?

               

              Is it that there are some areas where we must have work experience and there are certain areas where we need not have work experience?

               

              Thanks & Regards,

              Nishant

              Manager- T&D, M&M

               



              ---DISCLAIMER---------------------------------------------------------------------------- The contents of this E-mail (including the contents of the enclosure/(s) or attachment/(s) if any) are privileged and confidential material of Mahindra and Mahindra Limited (M&M) and should not be disclosed to, used by or copied in any manner by anyone other than the intended addressee/(s). If this E-mail (including the enclosure/(s) or attachment/(s) if any ) has been received in error, please advise the sender immediately and delete it from your system. The views expressed in this E-mail message (including the enclosure/(s) or attachment/(s) if any) are those of the individual sender. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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